Pocket Rule Clarification

In no way does it 'defeat' the AI. If you are in man you still follow the receiver, and if you are in zone it's easier to throw from the pocket vs zone than from outside the pocket. If someone is playing mainly zone, I generally don't roll out. Taking control of the receiver and running a wiggle is far more damaging to the AI than drifting out with your QB.

[quote="Fr8trainShane"][quote="phantomshark"]

Fr8trainShane wrote:

No you have it backwards. You only have the ability to drift because the pocket doesn't form like the NFL. The fact that you do drift creates a clear AI advantage to the offense, as Madden defenders do not adjust to you moving out of the pocket like they would in real life.

Drifting is basically taking advantage of a programming flaw. Its not more than a spy glitch (it defeats the AI). Not to mention, people who do drift, tend to drift when there is no pressure....

I would submit that moving your QB to create passing lanes against a zone is actually correcting the fact that madden receivers have an inability to sit in holes in the zone. In real life a WR will sit in the hole and create the passing lane. In madden the user is forced to move the QB to compensate for the AI inability to do this with the recievers - so it is a corrective action rather than an exploitation.

Look, Madden has overpowered man coverage so much, that anything that can be done to make it a little more likely to be able to throw to a WR is OK in my book.

Just the perfect example of what is wrong with Madden

And don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to outlaw it.... Like has been said, its fairly easy to just throw a defender into contain to stop it.

saastar wrote:i personally agree with FF that i dont think we need anymore rule changes.. i think the rule speaks for itself... no need in changing it...

But Cheddah is saying you have to make two reads before leaving the pocket etc. - however the rule itself is specific to dropping back and sprinting. This is my confusion - if the rule speaks for itself then you can leave the pocket immediately as long as you don't sprint or drop back more than 12 yards. As far as I can tell. So what is the rule speaking? My version or Cheddah's?

Hey, in Madden 12 they may not have to worry about player updates, so they can throw all their energy into fixing these little quirks.

sam22smith wrote:

saastar wrote:i personally agree with FF that i dont think we need anymore rule changes.. i think the rule speaks for itself... no need in changing it...

But Cheddah is saying you have to make two reads before leaving the pocket etc. - however the rule itself is specific to dropping back and sprinting. This is my confusion - if the rule speaks for itself then you can leave the pocket immediately as long as you don't sprint or drop back more than 12 yards. As far as I can tell. So what is the rule speaking? My version or Cheddah's?

You can move side to side if you are not sprinting, if you are not holding the sprint button he just kind of rolls around. You can also sprint a couple of steps (max) to clear a throwing lane readless, but to go farther than that you should already have made a couple of reads and be escaping pressure or preparing to run. That's the way I read the rule.

phantomshark wrote:

sam22smith wrote:

saastar wrote:i personally agree with FF that i dont think we need anymore rule changes.. i think the rule speaks for itself... no need in changing it...

But Cheddah is saying you have to make two reads before leaving the pocket etc. - however the rule itself is specific to dropping back and sprinting. This is my confusion - if the rule speaks for itself then you can leave the pocket immediately as long as you don't sprint or drop back more than 12 yards. As far as I can tell. So what is the rule speaking? My version or Cheddah's?

You can move side to side if you are not sprinting, if you are not holding the sprint button he just kind of rolls around. You can also sprint a couple of steps (max) to clear a throwing lane readless, but to go farther than that you should already have made a couple of reads and be escaping pressure or preparing to run. That's the way I read the rule.

Actually, the way I feel is that the minute you commit to spring (hitting R2), the play becomes a run play. The moment you decide to run, it doesn't matter if you see an open receiver, you can't throw it to him.... In my opinion.

Yeah. Hitting the sprint botton makes you tuck the ball. When do you see a qb tuck and run then change his mind and pull up to throw? But i wouldn't make it a rule, too many of them.

I agree with Shane... It is one thing to sprint away from the blitz and then throw the ball away.. (JUST discovered how to do this again.. thanks FF)... But many of the rollouts do confuse the AI and the defenders leave the wrs wide open as the come towards the sprinting qb... the sprint, spin, stop and throw the ball up is what should not be allowed.

Yes, i realize Aaron Rodgers, Mike Vick and Big Ben do step up in the pocket, move around to avoid the rush and even make throws on the run... NONE of the sprint towards the sideline when the ball is hiked to do this.

Look at the NFL top qbs, Brady, Brees, Manning and of course Mark Sanchez (who is top 6 qb in nfl)... They stay in the pocket and may run or throw the ball away as pocket passers... Scrambling qbs i understand do sprint more often but never right away.

I disagree, sometimes QBs run to a spot then stop. It's usually a predetermined spot. I have a thing for QBs who throw on the run, it's the first stat I look at, it's why Austin is my favorite QB to play. Some QBs tuck the ball and never look downfield again, some have their head up always looking to find a receiver. Especially if there's a short receiver in that direction with 1 guy covering, if that guy stays with his man I'll run, if he breaks from his man to stop the QB I'll throw. It's a valid strategy.

Using Sanchez, since you brought him up, he would often face pressure, sprint towards the sideline, and if he found a man open throw it in a very poised fashion.

I consider myself primarily a pocket passer. I do move around in the pocket and run a few plays where I roll out but mostly try to stick to the pocket.

well in 2 lgs i have austin.. so no way i would stay in pocket with him to throw football.. but i do wait for pressure before drifting or taking off with him.. and i have done what phantom has said before and what fr8 stated in his opinion.. pressure comes i start to roll out of pocket and start to scramble then as soon as i start the tuck motion i see an wr get open at that split second so i throw it to that wr.. i have never done the run out of the pocket run around spin and throw crap.. thats just unrealistic there.. but i have started to sprint and wanted to take off running.. just to find a wr/te get open as im starting to run and just throw the ball.. dont think there is to much wrong with that in my opinion.. but the only way i will immediately take off is if i see like an 4 man rush everyone else dropping in coverage and nobody on an spy.. then ill just go and not think twice about it..

Other than plays in which the person clearly scrambles way out of the pocket right after the snap in an unrealistic manner, I have no problem with anything that was mentioned. Though it is the intent of this group to make everything as realistic as possible, sometimes the way that the game is designed forces us to do things such as "drifting" in order pass successfully. Here are two things that we have little to no ability to do with the quarterback in madden:
1. A real life QB has control over his own body. He can feel the rush and will have a good feel for when he can step up or sidestep away from pass rushers, in madden since we have only minimal ability to do this and since when the qb will break a sack is comopletely unpredictable we simply have to assume that if a pass rusher gets anywhere near our QB that he is going to be sacked i we don't get rid of the ball.
2. A real life QB can try to put the ball in an exact spot. In Madden, though we have precision passing, that alone does not give us full control over what we are trying to do. The biggest problem with this is that we have no ability to legally throw the ball away from the pocket, an NFL QB will often throw the ball over the head of a receiver on the sideline or deliberately underthrow a comeback route that is covered by several yards just to take the incompletion. In Madden, if all of our receivers are covered, our only options are to get sacked or put one up for grabs.

This forces us to sometimes do minorly unrealistic things such as drifting. It's unfortunate but I say as long unless you intentionally do something that's blatantly unrealistic, it's not a big deal. I'm a fan of the 4th down rules, I'm a fan of the 20% rule, and I'm a fan of banning insanely unrealistic scrambles as well as 2 or 3 other rules. But for the most part when it comes down to something as ticky tacky as what we are talking about in this thread, do we really need more rules? This isn't something that gives you a large competitive advantage and it's something that everyone will just instinctively do from time to time.

phantomshark wrote: Using Sanchez, since you brought him up, he would often face pressure, sprint towards the sideline, and if he found a man open throw it in a very poised fashion.

A perfect instance of this just happened AGAINST me in my game against Snakecharmer and made me think of this thread. He had a 3rd and 3 or 4, I had good coverage and two of my D-linemen broke through the line after a couple of seconds and pressured him. He sprinted toward the sideline and threw a short pass to his receiver for the first down. Had he kept running, my lineman would have caught him. I thought to myself "That was a nice improved play." To outlaw something like that would be downright unneccesary.

Cheddah_Cheez wrote:I don't remember the specific play, but he rolled left (not in a sprint) and threw a pass to a receiver who broke to the sidelines. The pass went pretty much on a line and hit the receiver perfectly. Had he been in the pocket that lane would have been filled. There would have been a D lineman, LB, and CB all of who would have most likely knocked down a direct bullet like the one he threw.

It's really not a big deal to me. I've accidentally broken a rule or two during a game, especially in the heat of the moment. The problem people are guys that are consistently doing it for the majority of the game. DW didn't really do anything wrong in that respect.

i ACTUALLY KNOW THE PLAY YOU Are reffering to - and DW runs it masterfully - AND ITS A PROOVEN FOOTBALL 101 STRATEGY - known as THE 2 MAN GAME (or a variation that DW runs - the 3 man game) and is absolutely DEADLY vs zone defense - and can be used well vs man if the qb can break DL containment...

This is how it works:
first off its a designed qb roll out - in that regard is permitted under the current rule...
- DW has 2 pass options - some1 threatening the flats (usually an inside reciver running a drag across the field or a shallow in route) and a TE or inside receiver on the play side running flag...
- The qb forces the defense to make a decision - does the player with flat responsiblity come up and force the QB to throw? - if so its an EZ dump off pass to the player running drag (if the deep responsibnility defender comes up to cover the flats in a zone rotation adjustment - that leaves the FLAg reciever open - if the defense is cover 3 - the middle deep zone can rotate over to help - but thats a long way to go in a short time)- if its a coiver 2 - no way the safety gets over in the rotation in time...
- If every defender stays put in their zone and defends their threat in their area - the QB scrambles for an EZ 7 yard gain...

Hence the term - 3 MAN GAME - 3 men and 3 options...

* the way this plays breaks down is if u have a DE that can prevent the QB from getting to his designed roll out or if u have an OUTSTANDING PLAYER IN THE FLATS - that u can user control - try to bait the QB into thinkn you are coming up to stop the QB scramble - and when he tries to dump off to the flats - make a play on the ball and a possible user pic... it may also be useful to audible a 2nd player to cover the flats (light blue zone) maybe a LB with speed u can use him to force the play - or maybe audible him to help contain the qb (and give him a proper angle of pursuit to be successful with this role before the snap) - although i bet u only get away with this once and DW will see that u are taken a player out of his normal role and DW will attack the area that LB should be supporting...

all in all - the 2/3 man game is a prooven football stategy - it creates great throwing lanes for the QB (we use it a lot in highscool - the flag and the out pattern are notoriously the hardest to throw at HS level due to a lack of QB arm strength - we use the out on th play side as oppose to a drag form the offside to threaten the flats) - but by rolling out the QB - it shortens the distance the ball must travel on the flag and the out - also a big advantage to this scheme...

in addition - if u have a play that flows to one side or another - its perectly acceptable for the QB to "waggle" in that direction - not afull sprint out - no quite a roll out - but a few steps in the direction the play is flowing to - but i would say this would still be in the pocket - and i am sure nobody would have an issue with that,,,