GAP GUESSING - is it SIM? VOTE HERE!

Vote simply by replyn to thread saying if your FOR or AGAINST of elliminating GAP GUESSING (note this doesnt effect the base RUN COMMITT or PASS COMMITT functionality)


Definition - GAP GUESSING occurs in short yardage when use L2 and R3 to anticipate - aka GUESS the direction of the play...

NOTE: GAP GUESSING (from what i seen in practice mode) works different vs CPU then it does vs a HUMAN PLAYER - for this discussion i am talking about how it works vs a HUMAN

First off - I want to concede that GAP GUESSING is a legit part of football - i am not opposed to the idea of GAP GUESSING (i think its a part of the game that EA tried to implement but unfortunately it doesnt work the way it does "in the real world") - this post is not about IF GAP GUESSING happens in football - its about its effectiveness in madden!

In short yardage - especially on the goal-line - i have noticed more and more players GAP GUESSING - and imo its works way too well (when implemented by a player with even just "average" user skills)

If you " gap guess" in the correct direction - U GET A STOP EVERYTIME (regardless of the play you run, how good your offensive players are or how weak your defensive players may be) and i am actually somewhat indifferent with this - although i do think that the OLINE should still be able to make blocks HALF THE TIME to counter the GAP GUESS (afterall they have the advantage - they know where the ball is running and when the ball will be snapped)

The bigger issue is how successful this tactic can be even when the defense "gap guesses" in the wrong direction - If the offense runs toss to the opposite side of the field then the "gap guess", The backside CB takes on the lead blocking FB, The guard gets entangled with all the DL players who are "gap guessing" and is out of the play - and an average USER can control the backside SAFETY - and comes down and makes an easy 1 on 1 tackle - (if u are unable to JUKE or RUN over the defender he stuffs the play for a loss!)

If you try to run the DIVE to OFFTACKLE hole (towards the side the defense is guessing towards or away) - your OLINE doesnt make a block because all the DL players are "shifting" through these running lanes - at best you can hope for is your OLINE player to make a "pile" and then if your RB runs into that pile he is probably gonna just fall down!

IN CONCLUSION:

1) if u run the same way that the defense gap guesses - U GET SMASHED FOR A LOSS

2) If u run to the opposite side that the defense gap guesses towards - The USER makes a relatively simple 1 on 1 tackle

3) If you run from A to C gap or from 0 to 6 hole, The shifting DL penetration at best creates a pile in your run lane and all you can hope for is to get back to the line of scrimmage!

Should running the ball in short yardage be that ineffective? I know from a SIM style perspective it makes my hair stand on end - but from a freestyle standpoint - ITS A KILLER TACTIC!

i have no problem with some1 tryin 2 run commit a certain way me, i rarely use the feature myself though unless im facing option in which case a simple pass commit slows it down

If you make it obvious you are going to run the ball and they choose to sellout against the run, then you've played right into their hands. Have to pass the ball out of running formation at the 1 yard line.

Otherwise NFL teams would NEVER throw from the 1 or 2 but they roll out and throw to corner or snap/throw a lobb fade or look for high ball back of the end zone to tight end etc... because it's not a garuntee you can just pound it in for that 1 yard.

General_Hon wrote:If you make it obvious you are going to run the ball and they choose to sellout against the run, then you've played right into their hands. Have to pass the ball out of running formation at the 1 yard line.

Otherwise NFL teams would NEVER throw from the 1 or 2 but they roll out and throw to corner or snap/throw a lobb fade or look for high ball back of the end zone to tight end etc... because it's not a garuntee you can just pound it in for that 1 yard.

both you and RIPPATILLMAN are not looking at this situation - I have NP with guys using the BASE RUN COMMITT features - THATS FINE - but using the GAP GUESS to either direction can be used to get a RUN STOP 100% of the time - even when u guess wrong! thats why its BS in my eyes!

Even if he guesses the right direction IT SHOULDNT BE AN AUTOMATIC STOP for the defense- - the success rate should go up from maybe 15% for the defense to 75% - but the offense should be able to make a play 1 in 4 times...

But the big arguement is when the defense guesses WRONG - it should be an EZ score but it isnt because a player who knows how to do this BS tactic simply makes a USER play with the backside safety

its a huge CHEAP TACTIC - no way in hell it should be 100% effective

And sure u can beat that crap by passing BUT THATS not the point is it?

In the NCAA league that I commish, I outright ban run commit, whether it's left/right/middle. Three reasons.

1. There is zero realism in how defenders react during run commit compared to real life football.

As a pure concept, I have no problem with the idea of "virtually coaching" my pixelated football players to anticipate a certain play. I have no issues with the concept. The problem is that during run commit the defenders act and look completely ridiculous when run commit is called, in a way that departs entirely from how defenders would respond when coached up during a real life game. I mean, look at how the guys move. It's like they're brainless zombies from "28 Days Later," lol.

I remember last year I had a coaching buddy over the house and I started up Madden to show him how run commit works (he doesn't play Madden) and we both laughed our asses off at how idiotic it looks. If you're honest with yourself, you'll admit that you probably laughed too, or at least raised an eyebrow, at how stupid it looks the first time you saw it.

Think about it this way: the game already has no gap assignment logic in the defensive programming. So why would you exaggerate the non-realism by multiplying it so that you have defenders running mindlessly "to the left" or "to the right" or "to the middle" with no recognition of what type of running play it is, where the point of attack is, how the play is developing, etc.? In real life, even if you coached your guys to anticipate a basic outside zone stretch play to the strong side, in no way would they react like you see defenders in Madden/NCAA when being run committed to that side. I mean, take an inside run. If you tell your defense to expect a simple FB dive or HB iso up the middle, you would not see defenders lined up a few yards away from the edge mindlessly trying to "crash the middle." I've beaten the dead horse here. It looks ridiculous and that's reason enough to not use it in a sim league that tries to at least promote a semblance of realistic football.

Ok, one more "looks ridiculous" point. Think about pass commit. What if you called pass commit, and it caused all pass defenders to take inside position on the receivers in front of them, and then jitter back and forth real fast in front of the receiver to create confusion on whether the receiver is "covered" or not. If that happened, we'd all say "that's ridiculous! Those defenders are doing stupid shit that you'd never see on Saturday/Sunday!" Well, that's kinda how run commit works right now.

Note, I haven't said anything about the effectiveness of run commit, whether it's overpowered, whether it can be countered, blah blah. That's not the point, which is that if it looks completely alien to the game of football, you can get rid of it without heartburn (see point 3 below).

2. Don't need it.

There are enough things you can do in EA football to defend a run that you think is going a certain direction that you don't need run commit. Play the game. Go into the lab. Plan your run defense. Execute the best you can.

If you think you "need" to use run commit at any point in the game, what you're really saying is "I give up trying to think my way through this, so I'm just going to call run commit and see what my brainless zombies can do." Why encourage that kind of lazy gameplay? If a guy can't come up with a workable way to defend a run going to a particular side or up the A or B gap, then he should be punished accordingly by the offense.

For goal line situations on the 1 or 2, we have goal line formations. Use them, with adjustments to help you defend runs going left/right or up the middle. I'd rather force guys to do this than to see ridiculous shit like someone using a defensive front that you'd never see on the 1 yard line in real life, and then run committing to zombie things up.

3. Easy to ban.

As guys know, I'm not in favor of vague rules to try to force 100% realism on the game, or rules that are hard to enforce. Banning run commit poses neither of those problems. It's a simple rule: don't do it. And it's easy to spot when someone calls it, so enforcement is not an issue.

jwallace0317 wrote:In the NCAA league that I commish, I outright ban run commit, whether it's left/right/middle. Three reasons.

1. There is zero realism in how defenders react during run commit compared to real life football.

As a pure concept, I have no problem with the idea of "virtually coaching" my pixelated football players to anticipate a certain play. I have no issues with the concept. The problem is that during run commit the defenders act and look completely ridiculous when run commit is called, in a way that departs entirely from how defenders would respond when coached up during a real life game. I mean, look at how the guys move. It's like they're brainless zombies from "28 Days Later," lol.

I remember last year I had a coaching buddy over the house and I started up Madden to show him how run commit works (he doesn't play Madden) and we both laughed our asses off at how idiotic it looks. If you're honest with yourself, you'll admit that you probably laughed too, or at least raised an eyebrow, at how stupid it looks the first time you saw it.

Think about it this way: the game already has no gap assignment logic in the defensive programming. So why would you exaggerate the non-realism by multiplying it so that you have defenders running mindlessly "to the left" or "to the right" or "to the middle" with no recognition of what type of running play it is, where the point of attack is, how the play is developing, etc.? In real life, even if you coached your guys to anticipate a basic outside zone stretch play to the strong side, in no way would they react like you see defenders in Madden/NCAA when being run committed to that side. I mean, take an inside run. If you tell your defense to expect a simple FB dive or HB iso up the middle, you would not see defenders lined up a few yards away from the edge mindlessly trying to "crash the middle." I've beaten the dead horse here. It looks ridiculous and that's reason enough to not use it in a sim league that tries to at least promote a semblance of realistic football.

Ok, one more "looks ridiculous" point. Think about pass commit. What if you called pass commit, and it caused all pass defenders to take inside position on the receivers in front of them, and then jitter back and forth real fast in front of the receiver to create confusion on whether the receiver is "covered" or not. If that happened, we'd all say "that's ridiculous! Those defenders are doing stupid shit that you'd never see on Saturday/Sunday!" Well, that's kinda how run commit works right now.

Note, I haven't said anything about the effectiveness of run commit, whether it's overpowered, whether it can be countered, blah blah. That's not the point, which is that if it looks completely alien to the game of football, you can get rid of it without heartburn (see point 3 below).

2. Don't need it.

There are enough things you can do in EA football to defend a run that you think is going a certain direction that you don't need run commit. Play the game. Go into the lab. Plan your run defense. Execute the best you can.

If you think you "need" to use run commit at any point in the game, what you're really saying is "I give up trying to think my way through this, so I'm just going to call run commit and see what my brainless zombies can do." Why encourage that kind of lazy gameplay? If a guy can't come up with a workable way to defend a run going to a particular side or up the A or B gap, then he should be punished accordingly by the offense.

For goal line situations on the 1 or 2, we have goal line formations. Use them, with adjustments to help you defend runs going left/right or up the middle. I'd rather force guys to do this than to see ridiculous shit like someone using a defensive front that you'd never see on the 1 yard line in real life, and then run committing to zombie things up.

3. Easy to ban.

As guys know, I'm not in favor of vague rules to try to force 100% realism on the game, or rules that are hard to enforce. Banning run commit poses neither of those problems. It's a simple rule: don't do it. And it's easy to spot when someone calls it, so enforcement is not an issue.

Finally we agree on something here - its a CHZ move - and your right IT LOOKS PLAN DUMB - and when done properly it can stop the run even when you "guess wrong" - crazy!

- On a similar but different note:

I noticed that PASS COMMITT works in my CPU practice lab sessions and when i do a "practice" scenario vs the CPU - I hold down L2, Pick pass committ and it briefly turns yellow to acknowledge the change - but in league play this "yellow highlight" after i presss pass committ doesnt occur - instead the player u control pumps up the crowd - SO I AM NOT SURE IF PASS COMMITT IS ACTUALLY BEING EMPLOYED - thoughts????


btw - I have no problem with pass committ - this is because many guys over use PLAY ACTION - and i dont mind guys who use play action who actually run the ball - THEY HAVE EARNED THAT RIGHT and the defense has to honour that run threat...

The problem is that the defense doesnt differentiate between guys who dont run the ball (or run the ball poorly) vs those that have a legit run game - PLAYACTION WORKS EQUALLY WELL - and thats insanity - what defensive player would "bite" on a playaction fake when the other team DOESNT EVEN RUN THE BALL? however in madden regardless of how much you run and your effectiveness in the ground game - playaction works equally for everyone - and for that reason PASS COMMITT is a good way to take that effectiveness away vs players who dont run the ball (and it doesnt hurt guys who run the ball well because if they RUN when u pass committ they should get a huge gainer!) - but with my question above, I am not sure you can even use pass comitt in league play - BUT NO DOUBT RUN COMMITT WORKS! lol

yes pass commit works in LG ply, i use all the time VS option users, if used vs option it keeps Def from biting on the fake handoff n contain the QB

RIPxPatTillman40 wrote:yes pass commit works in LG ply, i use all the time VS option users, if used vs option it keeps Def from biting on the fake handoff n contain the QB

I wonder why it doesnt HIGHLIGHT yellow like it does vs CPU?

But good to know - and shows how bad programming is PASS COMMITT shouldnt be a good defense vs an option qb - U would think SPY would bust that up easy but it doesnt - but from easy simpleton approach that EA programmers use - if u call pass committ, players dont "bite" on the option fake - so i could see how that would work in this badly programmed game!

Good tip tillman!

It's in the game so the offense can't run the same bogus unstoppable run play in short yardage every time. PART OF THE GAME PLAY! Works less then 15% of the time. IT MAKES THE GAME MORE EXCITING! I argue it makes the game more REAL!!! I look at outcome of play. Guys avg well over real life league avgs in yards and scores . Why make it even harder to play defense now by taking away a tactic for the defense to use? I think it's just awful you guys expect this game to be real? I also think you guys are not smarter then the programmers and developers who have been making this game for over 20 years and making a lot of money at it.


I love the greener grieving process

OF COURSE MY OPINION IS TO VITE FOR ABOLISHING GAP GUESSING

(this doesnt effect the BASE RUN COMMIT or PASS COMMIT - these are still a legit part of the game...

weasel_ wrote:so the offense can't run the same bogus unstoppable run play in short yardage every time.

I am known to have 1 of the best run games - I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW WHAT THESE UNSTOPPABLE RUN PLAYS ARE - because there are none!

weasel_ wrote: PART OF THE GAME PLAY! Works less then 15% of the time.

lol well if you only have 15% success rate - then u shouldnt have a problem giving up such a fruitless tactic!

- If you are doing the BS gap Guess tactic and are only getting 15% success - U ARE A SHITTY PLAYER (and we all know u are good and your success rate is much higher when u employ such a tactic...)

I explained HOW and WHY the defense is so successful when u gap guess - what part of my analysis is wrong?

weasel_ wrote: I argue it makes the game more REAL!!!

This is close to the dumbest thing u have ever said - and u have come up with WOWZERSS! It insane to see all the DL players literally STAND UP STRAIGHT (disregarding all football fundementals that they have been taught since peewee) - and the SHIFT (on MASS) crossing the face of the O-linemen they are shifting towards and penetrating - IT LOOK COMICAL - its literally something out of NFL BLITZ - all u need is a BOLT OF LIGHTNING SHOOTING FROM THE DLINE PLAYERS ASS and it would be something NFL BLITZ could use!

weasel_ wrote: I think it's just awful you guys expect this game to be real?

Yes this is a SIMULATION STYLE video game - that is suppose to imitate how NFL plays - and we are in a SIM league that takes steps when necessary to have rules in place that stop tactics that are outside of what would be considered "normal" in a real game - AND THIS IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF SOMETHING WE NEED A RULE ON -this tactic has no basis in reality - hence the reason for the rule...

It's part of the game you can win and lose with the tactic , so guess right!!

Stop the bloodclot crying Damn!!

The only new rule that should implicated is pausing the game when your on D, that is not fair and interferes with the game ,, where is the vote on that one??????

broadway_blitz wrote:It's part of the game you can win and lose with the tactic , so guess right!!

Well no surprise on your vote - U ARE 1 OF THE CLOWNS WHO DO THIS REGULARLY - of course u want this total BS tactic in the game - its only way u can win vs a top player...

In regards to your post - Your so wrong THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE WHEN U GUESS WRONG! - thats why this is such BS - and u know this because of what i said before - listed below:

GREENERRRR wrote:The bigger issue is how successful this tactic can be even when the defense "gap guesses" in the wrong direction - If the offense runs toss to the opposite side of the field then the "gap guess", The backside CB takes on the lead blocking FB, The guard gets entangled with all the DL players who are "gap guessing" and is out of the play - and an average USER can control the backside SAFETY - and comes down and makes an easy 1 on 1 tackle - (if u are unable to JUKE or RUN over the defender he stuffs the play for a loss!)

and guys have every right to pause when their on defense - especially when u play WRs at TE and when u do clear BS tactics like GAP GUESSING!

I am with JWallace on this one, it just looks so funny and unreal when you see it at first... I think I even mentioned this to you earlier in the year Greenerrr, but you disregarded it until it happens to you, haha.

Could a nano-blitz work with someone doing this? It's happened to me many times in crucial 3rd downs. I dont like to complain, but "video game" tactics make the game less enjoybale.

just my opinion of course...

Greenerrr ur the clown that comes up with a new rule every time u lose a game everyone knows it .. Clown u got the rep on the lg for that one lol

Yeah I beat u with that play cause u telegraph where the run is going

You want to make rules every single time u lose, u write 17 paragraph post nobody gives a shit about and nobody cares.

Clown, tell everyone how u paused the game 4x on the final 2m of the game (playoff$) then u did the same thing against Danny ... That's clown shit ,, people use gap guess against me so I use it as well .. It's that simple, not to mention there is no way to regulate it .. Other than when people play Greenerrr and everyone who is nice knows how those games go.. Lmao get it weight up and stop crying

Corney ass post

Everyone wins and loses ... Learn to lose with grace and respect ur opponent

And when u win jus say gg we don't need ur analysis of the game!

broadway_blitz wrote:Greenerrr ur the clown that comes up with a new rule every time u lose a game everyone knows it ..

THATS STUPID - i lose all the time - and when i lose in a legit way - guys get my respect; But if your pulling CHZY BS - i am obligated and required to call you out on it AND I WILL EVERYTIME!

broadway_blitz wrote:Yeah I beat u with that play cause u telegraph where the run is going

No u beat me because u gap guessed ON A SERIES THAT WAS FIRST AND GOAL FROM THE 1!

The worst was u even guessed wrong twice and still made the play! I would have no problem with GAP GUESSING if there was a converse downside to doing it - but the way u do it (and any player with average skill has this ability) - there is no downside- EVEN WHEN U GUESS WRONG U MAKE AN EASY BACKSIDE TACKLE WITH SAFETY - thats the insanity!

and even if u knew where the run was going I AM ON THE 1 YARD LINE WITH A 240 POUND RB WITH 99 SPEED - and i have an O-LINE THAT LOWEST PLAYERS HAS A 92 RATING - even if u guess right i 4 attempts I should be able to get a lousy 1 yard with the personnel i have!

broadway_blitz wrote:You want to make rules every single time u lose

Totally untrue - If anyone comes to me and shows me a situation that needs addressing - i fix it - but takes more then just a text - U NEED TO SHOW ME and i would take on anything that is clear CHZ in this game!

broadway_blitz wrote:u write 17 paragraph post nobody gives a shit about and nobody cares.

I write a detailed analysis of WHY SOMETHING IS BS - if u really think its legit - explain to the membership why! - but u can't justify it because its complete and total CHZ!

And guys do care about this stuff - Many trust me to be their custodian by making rules to stop CHZY BS like this - Only guys that defend such tactics is guys that use them - and thats lame...

broadway_blitz wrote:Clown, tell everyone how u paused the game 4x on the final 2m of the game (playoff$) then u did the same thing against Danny ...

Well BOZO, I pause and call people out on BS everytime they do it - if they dont like it - simple way to stop the pauses - STOP DOING BULL SHIT! in terms of pausing vs you - it was because u were tryn to play a WR at TE - clear breach of rules - why wouldnt i pause and call u on that?

broadway_blitz wrote:people use gap guess against me so I use it as well .. It's that simple, not to mention there is no way to regulate it ..

Well just because other people do CHZY things vs you DOESNT GIVE U THE WRITE TO DO CHZY THINGS VS OTHERS!

and this is the easiest rule to implement because IT SO OBVIOUS WHEN GUYS DO IT! Its so simple to spot (unlike some illegal blitzes) - and once we make the rule guys will be informed not to do it - JUST LIKE THERE NO SUPPOSE TO PLAY HB AS THE #1 WR or PLAY A WR AT TE! - hell u could even film gap guessing on a cell phone and it would be easy to spot - THERE ISNT AN EASIER RULE TO ENFORCE!

broadway_blitz wrote:Corney ass post

Everyone wins and loses ... Learn to lose with grace and respect ur opponent

And when u win jus say gg we don't need ur analysis of the game!

u get my respect - WHEN U DESERVE IT - i call everyone out when they pull BS - and even more so when it wins them the game - and if that bothers you there is a simple solution - STOP DOING CHZY BS!

I held off posting because I didn't exactly know what gap guessing was. I sort of have an idea since I've seen it used occasionally, but I don't have a problem with it. My last opponent used this tactic repeatedly and I exploited it with ease. My only complaint is the repeated use of this tactic outside the goal line is not sim at all, and it's purely video game nonsense.

But I'm completely fine with it being used at the goal line. I don't use it myself, but there are many times when I know exactly where the runner is going to go, but I still can't do anything about it. There are obviously others in the same boat.

McNoob wrote:I held off posting because I didn't exactly know what gap guessing was. I sort of have an idea since I've seen it used occasionally, but I don't have a problem with it. My last opponent used this tactic repeatedly and I exploited it with ease. My only complaint is the repeated use of this tactic outside the goal line is not sim at all, and it's purely video game nonsense.

But I'm completely fine with it being used at the goal line. I don't use it myself, but there are many times when I know exactly where the runner is going to go, but I still can't do anything about it. There are obviously others in the same boat.

With all do respect - u havent played someone who knows how to pull that CHZ right - if u did - u would be against guys doing it 100%

Responding to your post and the text - I don't think gap guessing is necessarily cheap (though I think people rely on it too much). I don't use it myself because I believe I can stop an offense without it. For some reason my goal line defense is already pretty good.

But you're right, maybe I haven't seen it used effectively. Though by saying that, it'd be unfair for me to make a decision about this rule, because I lack the proper experience of seeing it exploited.

I will say it should be illegal outside the goal line or 4th & 1 because of the basic sim factor.

i agree with Mcnoob instead of a full outlaw of the run commit, i think it should b allowed in goal line situations if the users wants to use it especially at the 1 since it helps vs QB sneaks n short yrdage runs , if your opp keeps doing it 2 u n stopping ur run just try hitting thm with a dumpoff 2 HB on a early down n mk thm twice about it

Anyone who is at all any good uses this tactic pretty much exclusively on short yardage or in the cases of when guys come out and run GOALINE on offense and run out of that a their main base offense . To say mcNoob doesn't play someone who uses this tactic and is in the same division as Dcolon is a lie. He plays dcolon more then you . And oh guess what ? MCNOOB BEAT DCOLON this very season!!!! Did dcolon make up a new rule? Hey why were at it RipTillman uses that cheese QB thing the best in he league . I can't figure it out it should be illegal it's a vs cheap tactic I can't do. See how this works greener? So because you SUCK at gap guessing and have not gotten it to work you gona make it illegal so you can have an easier time beating the toughest oppenonetS. You want to handicap yourself and ya bullshit

Word

lol, this is pretty funny.
I agree, until it happens to Greenerrr, he will realize if something needs to be done.
But lets keep the goal in focus. We want a "sim" league. Sure, some people are better at finding ways to counter these video game tactics than others, and can be successful at it. But thats not the main point. Is it really sim or not? does it look like things like that would happen in a real game? Thats the main issue (not that Greenerrr or some others cant stop it, lol)

I'm with McNoob and Riptillman, maybe keep it to goaline situations? HPee did it a couple of times agianst me right now, and somehow I was able to get some yardage and a first down. When Dcolon does it to me, I cant even hand it off to my back (not sim).

It would be a different story, if a USER plays with a LB or safety, and HE guesses the play and gap, for a loss of yards. Now that is something to give props to the other player for.

But you see Hpee didn't execute as well as Dcolon in using it so its only in sim when Dcolon uses it? No

I'm looking at the result of the play more so then how it looks on the field. The "Un sim" argument bothers me because really the game is anything but "sim". There is actually noting sim about this game. Look at the stats!

Leading rushers in any league always eclipse 2000 yard mark. Passing leaders are well above 6000 yards. Leading receivers well above 2500 yards and 30 Tds on the season . Point avg well above NFL standards and we play less then half the minutes in the game. Greener and his prolific run game which is tips in the league. AP AVG I think this season over 9 yards per carry. BUT I CAN'T IMPLOY A TAXTIC THAT INCREASES MY CHANCES SLIGHTLY TO STOP SHORT YARDAGE PLAYS?! Short yardage is so damn hard to stop by god we have a rule already I'm place to prevent easy 4th down conversions . That's why we have a punt rule right? BECAUSE PLAYING DEFENSE IN THIS GAME IS THE HARDEST PART!!!! But here we are because GREENER LOST!!!!! We have to visit a rule change! It's bullshit!!! Furthermore now greener also wants this rule affective immediaty! Doesn't even want the vote to be transparent and online. He says its ok for people to jut text him!!!! WELL BASED ON THIS THREAD GREEN YOU ARE BEING OUT VOTED! Only you and jwallace want it fully abolished. I know myself , dcolon and broadway vote the same . SO ALREADY THAT'S 3-2 in out favor and everyone else Kavorka Tillman DrMcnoob voted to leave it only in short yardage. WHICH OS WHAT EVERYONE USES IT FOR ANYWAYS! So that's 5-2 on votes. MOTION DENIED! And even if you did lobby enough votes to get this past THERE SHOULD NEVER BE A RULE CHANGE MOD SEASON IN ALL FAIRNESS TO THE THE COMPETATIVE BALANCE OF THE LEAGUE