QB sub rule?

MoWarrior79 wrote:my 2 cents...if you sub a qb it should be permanent and you cant switch back just to keep it sim as possible but part of me agrees with phantom that you should know your opponent and his back qb

For the record, knowing your opponent has a scrambling QB on his team means nothing because you can't tell if he's in until you've already picked your play. AND if they wanted they could make every player on their team have the same number so you can't bank on numbers helping you. I know in one league I switched Jahvid Best's number to 2 (my old number). So number's don't really mean anything.

maybe we could make a rule about jersey numbers then? qbs must have different jersey numbers. i like to sub in my qb for qb sneaks on goaline situations like snake charmer said above.

I'll say it again, I hate it. I just played an opponent who used 2 different QBs. First thing I did each play was see what number was walking up under center, and then calling an audible if I needed to. When Brad Smith comes in the game for the Jets, you never know where he's going to be until he lines up, if it's at QB you know the D switches its call.

If they were to go as far as legislating when I play a backup, I'd say good-bye, that's going way past the line of sim. Why not tell me what plays I have to run too?

P.S. Explain to me why this is any worse than someone using a power back and then subbing in Reggie Bush. Or going 2 HB package and instead of Tony Richardson, Felix Jones is catching a pass from the FB spot. You have no idea which backs are in until they line up. Why is that any better or worse than the QB? Get in the habit of checking their skill personnel as soon as they break the huddle and adjust accordingly

the message above is phatom message just forgot to copy and paste it to.. but this will help from talking about this topic in another topic they are trying to vote on

Lol I swear this topic was A LOT longer

lol.. just seemed that way with all the long sentences....

but after re-reading about it.. what mumbai_thug even though we had differences through most of this doesnt have to bad of an idea also surf included.. i mean i dont think we should still with keep the sub qb in permanent but having to change jerseys numbers so that both qbs have a different number so that ur opponent knows ok carson palmer who had number 9 is out bc now number 7 who is vick is in.. and then give ur opponent maybe like 5 secs to do an audible change.. bc if i see one of my cbs on the wrong side of the field in man coverage and a wr open when i hit R2 then most of the time it dont take me but 5 secs to get my cb to shift to the other side to man up on the guy..

but i diffently dont agree with keeping a sub qb in permnant or unless an injury happens.. u should be allowed to sub them in at ur own risk.. bc like most scrambling qbs their carry blows anyway so if they take any kind of hit they are going to more then likely fumble... but thats just my opinion..

The jersey thing is an OK suggestion. But like when I see certain WRs (3 or 4) sometimes I play nickel or dime sets. As a scrambler myself, I see that, I can easily beat TWO spies and still snag AT LEAST A 6yd gain on any given play. I know how to prevent that (no I'm not sharing) but that involves me making certain substitutions in several spots. Even if you change their numbers, I can't make those subs because I don't know who is in the game until after the fact. Right there, that's the problem. In the NFL they know. Right Away. They can make their subs.

For those interested. I looked up Micahel Vicks stats from his year with the Eagles where all you guys think he "split" time with McNabb. That year he was in there for 37 snaps (13 passing attempts, 24 rushing attempts). DMc took 480 snaps (443 passing, 37 rushing) that season. That means Vick took 7% of the snaps total ALL Season. Moreover, of the 7% of the snaps he took, Vick ran for about more than half of those snaps. Which meant all season Vick only came in to throw the ball 3% of the time. And that's Michael Vick, the most prominently used scrambler in the league. So if you want to try and tell me that subbing QBs is realistic your full of it.

I hate that people bitch about this, and it's pissing me off that this is even getting a second's worth of consideration. No, you can't always tell who's going to be the QB in an NFL game, they often leave the starter in. But in Madden you also can't tell who's going to be the RB, who's going to be the FB, who's going to be the WRs, etc. Passing a rule limiting substitutions at any position would be horrible, horrible, horrible. Might as well buy an arcade football game.

When can you not tell who's going to be a QB in an NFL game? When they run the wildcat? The eagles ran Michael Vick and Donovan on the field at the same time ONCE ever. The Jets may have done it with Sanchez and Smith once as well. Both of those happened in wildcat. The difference between a fast RB and Power RB isn't as significant as a Scrambler vs a Pocket passer. RBs can only run inside or outside. Pocket passers can't outrun DEs and Most linebackers, Scramblers can. Did you read the information I posted above? The goal of the group is to provide as close to a realistic experience as possible. So how is subbing a QB realistic? Especially now that you have the stats from the team that did it most often in NFL history?! How is that not proof enough that it's unrealistic? Add to the fact that when people do it, they're not doing it for the reasons people do it in real life and it makes it even more unrealstic...

Jets leave Sanchez in almost every time Brad Smith plays QB. You cannot tell from who's in the huddle which one will be at WR. If you don't have at least 1 or 2 audibles in for a running QB, shame on you.

cheddah i know u dont see it but there is big difference in power back and speed backs that is just as important as pocket passer vs scramblers..

1st if ur starting like steven jackson and u have like reggie bush and felix jones on ur bench.. u play most of the snaps with steven jackson in the backfield even in shotgun until a couple time jackson comes out bc of fatigue and bush is in on a shotgun play and u also sub in flex jones in the Fb spot so now instead of a 3wr 1te 1rb set beening shown u are now seeing a 2wr 2rb 1te set so everytime i dont see a 3wr set i automatically come out in some sort of 3-4 defense.. but not knowing felix jones got subbed in the fb position i am now guarding the 2wrs with my fast cbs but if the te and both felix and bush go out for a pass im fucked.. bc i will like 2Lbs covering reggie bush and felix jones and have my fs covering the te.. so who u going to throw it to?? bush or felix jones who is covered by an 80 speed LB.. total disadvantage to me not knowing felix jones was in..

2nd if someone comes out in like 4wr 1rb set im automatically picking an dime diffense or an defense where i got 4 fast cbs going 4 wrs but u come out 5 wide and hb brian westbrook is the 5th wr.. which is legit.. but i was thinking the whole time the hb was going to be in the backfield plus that it could possible be steven jackson in the backfield or that westbrook was going to be in the backfield and not apart of a 5 wide out set.. now i have 4 cbs covering 4 wrs but i have again an 80 speed LB covering brian westbrook which is a total mismatch so i am now trying to scramble and get my fs to cover westbrook before u snap the ball or i have to move from me playing my DT spot and switch to my LB who is manually covering westbrook and no cover him myself which could open up a big hole for the qb to run throw now bc i am now having to guard westbrook bc i didnt know he was apart of a 5 wide out set..


finally the whole arguement about a pocket passer cant out run a DE or most LBs is not true either.. i have kevin kolb, chad henne in a couple lgs and i have played with eli manning before and i have been able to out run plenty of DE's and LBs with these guys and make first downs.. i mean yes with a scrambler it would be easier but i have done it plenty of times with kolb and chad henne in these lgs and out ran some of the elite DE and LBs on the game...

phantomshark wrote:Jets leave Sanchez in almost every time Brad Smith plays QB. You cannot tell from who's in the huddle which one will be at WR. If you don't have at least 1 or 2 audibles in for a running QB, shame on you.

Phantom. in 2009, Brad Smith took 19 snaps (18 rushing...although some could have been WR reverses, and 1 Passing) while Sanchez took 400 snaps (364 passing, 36 rushing). So Brad Smith came in and took snaps 4.5% of the time all season, and came in and took snaps to actually throw the ball even less. This season, Sanchez took 537 snaps, (507 passing and 30 rushing) and Smith took 41 (38 rushing, 3 passing)...more, but still only 7% of the time (like vick in 2009...and threw the ball about as frequently as 2009. The QB obviously stays in during the wildcat and others teams specialty packages, but you can't take something that in it's most frequent occurrences on the football field and expect to say it belongs in a sim game of madden. AND even if you can somehow rationalize that, I'd be fine with it if people were using their backups in the same fashion as they do it in the NFL, but the long and short of it is they aren't. How can you take an extreme circumstance such as the Jets and Eagles, and try and apply that to what's going on, even though people don't use them the same?


I'd like to see your hot route or Scrambling QB audibles be effective against ANYONE who knows what they're doing with a scrambling QB, because I know I'd torch them, and it's not to sound cocky in any manner, it's because I know pretty much what they are and how they can be beaten.

Would you be happy if I onside kicked after every half and claimed it was ok because the saints did it in the SB??

Saastar your example makes no sense. A in a shotun set, I wouldn't be able to put Felix at the fb bc there is no fb spot. If it's a 2 back shotgun set the pla screen reads 2rb 3wr 0te so no, it wouldn't matter if I had Reggie and Felix in at the Rb spot. Secondly, if a team is coming out in a 5th set or a 4th set why would it matter if it was Reggie or Stephen Jackson in that 5th receiver spot. Either way you know they're not running so put a cb on them. So I don't see how any of that has relevance. Also Reggie bush isn't going to drop back and throw a 60yd bomb on you. He may take a sweep outside instead of a b gap slam. Not much of a difference needed personnel wise. Audibles and hot routes can account for that. Mike Vick can throw a bomb or drop back and out run your lineman or certain lbs. So there's your big difference. Scrambling qbs can do everything a Rb does and everything a pocket passer does.

As far as you outrunning lbs and DEs with kolb, maybe you do that when a player is in a normal pass rush and coverage, but I just played you and when you tried that on me and I switched my deto a spy you stopped outrunning him. If you give me a scrambling qb and put your average de on me to spy I'd run around him 9 times out of 10

Also neither of you guys have answered my question about the infrequency of it in real life PLUS the fact that people aren't using these players in those ways anyway. Subbing qbs happens on 3 NFL teams 7% of the time over an ENTIRE NFL season. And when that happens it's for specialty plays where the subbed qb runs misdirections and trick plays and almost never throws. Brad smith might be in there at the same time as Sanchez, so they don't know who's gonna take the snap, but they do know there's a 97% chance that if smith takes the snap it's staying on the ground.

well we can keep going back and forth.. but u mite not be able to put felix jones in at the fb spot but u could switch him in the TE spot that lines up in the backfield right beside the qb.. meaning it would read a 3wr 2rb set... which means u could also out of that set go 5 wide and have reggie bush and felix in a 5 wide set and im not guarding 2rbs.. 1 with a FS and the other with an LB...


next ur whole things about vick, brad smith, tim tebow, josh johnson and pat white only did this amount of snaps at qb and most were runs plays and they only passed 7 % of the time.. but the thing is they did have passing attempts and its not just out of that wildcat bs and not all on misdirections... i mean u can go look up as many snaps of each people and everyone over the past 10 years for all i care..

but the way i use qb's shouldnt be limited just bc people dont know what qb is coming and complain bc they dont know who is in.. i mean i dont sub qb's in every other play nor have a seen a person switch a scrambler in every other play.. i like to run out of shotgun now and like i said before if ur blitzes are getting way to close to where i cant get do anything with my starting qb then i will switch to a 5 wr set and have pat white, travis jackson, josh johnson in at qb so that way when u bring the blitz i have a srambling qb to give me time in the pocket to move around if needed and make a play..

also ur whole thing about bringing up our last game.. yes u did stop kolb when u switched until u knocked him out of the game.. but i as well keep austin pretty well contained.. u had 4 attempts for 41 yds.. and i had 5 sacks in the game with a dline and LBs who are all made up of 60 overalls and maybe 1 70.. so by ur statement u should of been able to out run my DT DE and LBs 9/10 times without taking a sack.. but instead u had 4 attempts for 41 yds which ur longest run was 20 yds.. so the other 3 u picked up 7 yds.. then with josh johnson u had 3 attempts for 21 yds in which ur longest was 20 yds meaning out of the other 2 that u gained only 1 yd against Average or below aveage DT DE and LBS... which u should of been able to beat bc u have a scrambling qb...

i mean this can go on and on.. but just like GREENERRR'S things to be voted on i dont think this one is going to be passed either..

Ok, your RB situation still doesn't make sense...but regardless of that, you still have no answered any of my questions.

A. When Vick and those other guys only come in for 7% of the plays (not per game, in an ENTIRE SEASON), and out of those plays that they're in pretty much never throw the ball (the stat doesn't say they throw it 7% of the time, it's far less than that), how could you possibly say that subbing in a scrambling QB on 2nd/3rd and long to scramble around is reflective of the NFL?

I answered your questions regarding the RBs: Almost all teams use 2 back systems, very frequently...shotgun sets with 2 fast backs in still come up as 3WR, 2RB, 0TE...so it's OBVIOUSLY a shotgun set, so it's not like you're picking nickel formations to defend that. Anything else like putting RBs in the slot or w/e you thought up is a manipulation of the play call screen and agreed upon as lame by EVERYONE in the group.

B. If I ran no huddle all game, or onside kicked every half and claimed it's because Peyton Manning runs it in Indy or the Saints did it in the SB, would you be ok with that? Because by the way you defend the QB subbing you would. It's the same principle, except the QB subbing is even worse because you're not even attempting to use them like teams really do in the NFL.

Answer those 2 questions for me

A you answered for yourself. 7% is a significant number of snaps to play. I'm guessing Brad Smith this year is closer to 10% but I can't be sure. Tim Tebow is getting a fair # of snaps in Denver. I don't do it, because I usually have a fastish QB as my main guy, but if my opp is blitzing hard every third and long, damn right I might occasionally throw a fast QB in there occasionally. It would be completely unsim to not allow the occasional QB substitution. And it would be unfair to have 2 players on the same team with the same #, so I can tell as soon as they break the huddle who is QBing.

ANSWER TO UR 1ST QUESTION- i dont give 2 shits about what stat ur trying to prove.. but i agree subbing in a qb every other play like u refered before would be alittle bs.. but again i have heard no complaints from anyone saying that somebody in the group was subbing their qb's every other play.. and i personal not seen 1 person do it.. and i think subbing in a scrambling qb is the same thing as when NFL teams put other people in like tim tebow, mike vike, josh johnson, or brad smith on 3rd and longs or in 2nd down plays to pick up some yds or the first down is legit... bc like ur stat ur trying to prove most of the times they sub people in the Qb situation it is always not some wildcat bs.. i have seen it out of shotgun and others.. yes it mite be a run.. but its the same thing as in madden if u got a 2nd and long or 3rd and long and u switch qb for a play to help with picking up the first down or give urself more time to throw...


ANSWER TO UR 2ND QUESTION i personal would have no problem with someone running a no huddle all game if they want to.. bc peyton manning dont do it all the time but he does do it frequently on a couple of series out of the game.. so i would have no problem with it.. but the onside kick point ur trying to make doesnt make sense bc they did they onside kick 1 time.. they didnt open the game that way... so if someone wanted to try an onside kick to surprise someone to start the 2nd half i would think thats legit.. only if ur down though.. bc the saints was down at the time.. plus if some one can out in a outside kick the game gives u time to audible to an onside kick recovery... but u would only be allowed 1 per half.. bc like i said they only did it to start the 2nd half.. no huddle i wouldnt have a problem with bc i play man coveage anyway.. and with my defense i got in EZ lg.. go ahead and run no huddle!!! lol.. i aint scared.. my last game i had 5 ints with that defense..

and none of my examples will make sense to u.. so i wont try to make sense of it anymore and keep it simple for u...

FINALLY LIKE I SAID BEFORE I DONT THINK UR GOING TO GET IT TO PASS ANYWAY BC NO ONE IS VOTING ON ANYTHING..


P.S THE ONLY TIME I SUB IN A SCRAMBLING IS WHEN I GO INTO A 5 WR SET.. AND THE DEFENSE IS GETTING PRESSURE ON ME BUT I STILL ONLY SUB A QB IN A 5 WIDE OUT SET EVEN WITH PRESSURE

ALSO I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT IF THEY CHANGED IT NOW THAT IF U DRAFTED A FAST QB AS AN BACKUP THAT U HAVE NOW FUCKED UP THEIR PICK.. BC IF THE RULE WAS IN PLACE BEFORE THEY COULD OF DRAFTED ANOTHER POCKET PASSER INSTEAD OF HAVING A FAST BACKUP IN PLACE OR ANOTHER POSITION THEY NEEDED INSTEAD OF A WASTE OF A PICK FOR A SCRAMBLING QB...

7% of the snaps in a season is not significant at all. Especially not at the QB position. And the numbers I gave for Brad Smith are current, as of last sunday's game...Still, even for argument's sake if 7% was significant, the 7% of the time they're in the game, it's not to drop back and scramble around. It's for specialty plays. So that still doesn't answer the question of how putting in your scrambling QB to run around is reflective of the NFL.


Also, saastar, you say that you put in your scrambling QBs because people are blitz heavy. I'm not blitz heavy at all. The only time I blitz is on 3rd and longer than 10, or if I smell run on 1st down. But you do it to me. Our last game Kolb got hurt, so that's different. But the other time's I've played you you've done it when I don't blitz.

Well in a SIM league, that's intention is to be reflective of the NFL, drafting a backup QB for the sole purpose of running a 2 QB system is stupid. Not saying any of you are stupid, just saying if the reason you drafted a speedy QB as a backup is solely for the purpose of subbing him in and using him in shotgun situations so he can drop back and run around knowing FULL WELL that doesn't happen in the NFL, then that STRATEGY (not you) is stupid.

I'm not saying you can't sub out your QB in a game where you're getting blitzed left and right, because a decision like that could potentially happen in the NFL. I'm saying that in the NFL when QBs are being blitzed they and the coordinators adjust their playcalling...they don't send in the fast guy to run around. That would be a realistic move. If you're getting blitzed heavily, you call quick routes and make hot reads, you don't put in a fast guy and run around. If the QB in the NFL STILL couldn't get it done, then the coach might think of going to another QB on the bench with mobility, but the starter sure as hell wouldn't be coming back in.

the last game i played against u besides this pass game was when i had jimmy clausan and was the jets in green 1.. the only other time i have played u was season 1 in green 2 where i had another playbook and i subbed in A qb bc u wasnt blitzing and u gave me running lanes with pat white.. but i never once subbed in kolb and pat white every other player..

which like i said before i havent seen 1 person in MG to sub in an QB every other player so not really making to much of a strong arguement besides the point that u cant tell who is in or not so it fucks with ur play calling on defense... which like phantom said why not have audibles in place to where if they sub in the qb that u can audible to one of those plays???

i mean now like i said before i dont run the same playbook i did when i started.. im out of the shotgun mainly now and the only time i sub in A scrambling qb is when im getting pressure from the defense.. or i see someone aint bringing pressure and is dropping everyone but 3 people... so i go into a 5 wr set and have the scrambling qb in to pick up the first down or make a play... but its not every other play like ur refering to...

No I never said it's every other play. In fact, I only see it late in the game when people wanna do things like run around until someone gets open and throw. That's still a problem, because it doesn't happen in the NFL. I also don't drop everyone into coverage, I use all 4 of my Dline to pash rush.

Secondly, I don't like audibling to a QB contain play because containment doesn't work against someone who knows what they're doing unless you have the right personnel in. You talked about stopping me in our last game (even though 7 rushes for 60+yds with a QB isn't really stopping me), it's because your regular every down Defense is all crappy overall players that are just fast, so obviously when you run your containment you already have fast guys in there. I don't ONLY play with speed (although in grnr 2 lg my team is all speed), but I do keep fast guys for situations like that. If I don't know who's gonna be in there I can't run my containment plays because the personnel will be wrong.

well i didnt draft pat white, tarvis jackson, traded for josh johnson of the sole purpose of running a 2 Qb system.. i drafted them for insurance that if i needed them to come in like 8 plays out of the game to help me win that would be their purpose.. also to backup my starter who is an pocket passer.. i mean i can play with an scrambling qb all day long i have no problem with it.. just like in green 2 now i have to play with pat white the rest of the season bc kolb is out 8 weeks but thats why i drafted pat white to back up kolb but he also helps when i need him... same thing with jackson i drafted him to back up kolb in surf lg which again kolb got hurt for whole season early like week 3.. so now in week 12 im still starting jackson and i have no problem playing with him... in EZ and ur lg i now traded for faster qbs in vince young and mike vike which they are my starters.. so i dont have a problem starting an scrambling qb..


i have a problem with u trying to limit me from subbing them in not every other play but like 8 plays out of the game in a 5 wr set if they are needed... or if the pressure is getting there and i need more time to throw.... or saying if i sub my pocket passer out that i have to keep him out.. i dont think that is right either...