5 second snap rule

Many SIM leagues have this rule - its time we consider implementing it...

proposed rule:

U have to wait at least 5 SECONDS - after your entire team is "set" before you snap the ball...


Reason for the rule:

- Its a common tactic for players to SNAP THE BALL ASAP - so that defense cant do the presnap adjustments they want to do...

- The game doesnt allow for basic PRESNAP READS and positional adjustments - example if TE lines up in slot - LB mans up vs him instead of playing zone... If a certain "speed" qb is subbed in the game the strong side OLB automatically plays SPY... If 2 TEs are on the same side3 of the field - the CB to that side auto blitzes (there are hundreds of examples)

These adjustments would be AUTOMATIC ADJUSTMENTS - based upon how the defense lines up - the game doesnt have the capacity to program these adjustments - U HAVE TO MANUALLY IMPLEMENT THESE ADJUSTMENTS BEFORE EACH PLAY - the offense can circumvent you from making these BASIC AND AUTOMATIC ADJUSTMENTS simply by snapping the ball as fast as he can - THATS BS IN MY EYES!

note - obviously if time clock is going to expire - u dont have to wait 5 seconds - but if u continually wait to 11 seconds on playclock before u call your play - then u will be in breach of the rule - (bigmullet adendum) - if it happens once in a while - thats ok - but it cant be a continuous strategy u employ to circumvent the rule....

Love to hear your thoughts... dont be shy!

I'm the coach I have the ball I can do whatever the hell I want with it. If I want to play fast I can . If I want to hold the ball for as long as I can I will do that also. You are systematically taking away coaching decisions that vastly affect game play. YOU ARE RUNING THE FUN!!!!! This rule is the biggest bunch of Mickey Mouse shit yet! It makes zero cents and is a result of YOUR OWN failure to defend against DColon. You loosing in the NFC championship should not result in a rule change that is in favor of you being able to have a better chance of beating him. That's what this is all about . You having a tuff time beating Dcolon and now you have to make up rules that will give you a better chance to do so. YOU ARE BETTER then this. Just practice your pre snap adjustments more that's all you had to do. Not make YET ANOTHER rule that slows gameplay and CAUSES MORE PROBLEMS AND MORE COMPLAINING!!!!


JUST PLAY BALL MAN

weasel_ wrote:I like to snap the ball ASAP to avoid the defense being able to set up.....

SPOKEN LIKE A TRUE FREESTYLE PLAYER - defending something that is clearly bs - EVERY DEFENSE HAS FUNDEMENTAL ADJUSTMENTS - they are basic things - adjustments made on simple presnap reads - not rocket science - very basic stuff - EACH POSITION CAN HAVE THESE ADJUSTMENTS - not sayn that we should have enough time to make an adjustment for all 11 players - BUT ITS FAIR TO EXPECT TO MAKE AT LEAST 2 OR 3 ADJUSTMENTS!

BUT when guys come out of the huddle AND SNAP LITERALLY AS FAST AS POSSIBLE - for the only reason being to stop defense from making BASIC ADJUSTMENTS - thats bs! There is no other reason to snap that fast! How can u defend such a blatantly cheap tactic? Is your game that weak that u cant "man up" and play the defense in honest way - where they can make basic adjustments like any peewee football team would do???

Sure there are some adjustments some guys do AUTOMATICALLY every play - and they can BUTTON MASH as the players run out to their place on the field - but for those of us WHO DO A PRESNAP READ - we have to wait to see who lines up where - and if u snap as fast as possible - we are lucky to make 1 adjustments...

Well i know what weasel vote is - and not surprised - he wouldnt have any rules if we had it his way - it would be a total lobby trash league...

I'm posting a reply on the assumption that this is going to be taken constructively as part of a mature discussion, and I'm not going to be trashed for opposing the proposed rule. Hopefully it goes that way.

1. I have played and coached the game of football, and I have never heard of an offense waiting 5 seconds after the players are set to snap the ball. There's no "waiting" at all. If the QB audibles, then there's a delay occasioned by that. Otherwise, you get to the line and you snap, with the only time variation being the snap count to avoid defenders jumping the snap. This isn't something that's debatable, because even guys who've never played a snap can verify this by just watching real life games. For anyone with an NFL Game Rewind subscription, go look at the Ravens' opening drive in the Super Bowl for a simple example. Flacco huddles 'em up, breaks the huddle, lines 'em up, they get set, and almost immediately snap after being set. In contrast, in the 49ers opening drive, there were about 5 to 7 seconds between set and snap for most plays, and that's because Kaepernick audibled on those plays.

2. Again, referring to real football, the concept of "pre-snap read" generally refers to the offense, not the defense. A QB may audible to a different play or tag or adjustment depending on whether he feels a blitz is coming, where the pressure is anticipated to come from, whether safeties are 1 high or 2 high, etc., but that's the offense's prerogative. The offense dictates the pace of the game and how much time is spent on pre-snap adjustments. Defensively, the only thing you could call a "pre-snap read" is just seeing what personnel the offense has in the huddle, 10 personnel, 11 personnel, 21, etc. As a defense, you know who's going to be lining up against you, you have your defensive playcall ready based on your coordinator's game plan and down/distance, and you get to it. The defensive coordinator and MLB do not say things like "oh look, the offense's 11 personnel just got set in a bunch formation to the strong side instead of ace trips weak side, let's change the whole playcall or make 3 or 4 adjustments to it!" The window of time between when the offense is set and when the ball is snapped is so short (again, I'm talking about times other than when the QB audibles) that the defense doesn't make many changes, if at all, in that window of time.

3. For as long as I can remember in EA football, users on defense often strive to make a shitload of pre-snap adjustments, far beyond anything that you would see in a real football game. Guys are put into zones, re-blitzed, manned up on receivers on the other side of the field, put into press coverage, then back off, then press again, etc., we all know the drill. One of the only ways to combat this unrealistic practice is by not waiting to snap the ball on offense (and, as I mention above, waiting would itself be unrealistic unless you have a delay from audibling). So, by having the described "5 second wait rule" you're basically promoting non-realism (extra time for unrealistic amount of defensive adjustments) by encouraging more non-realism (making offenses wait to snap the ball).

4. In EA football, there are already 5-7 seconds from the huddle break to snap for the defensive user to make adjustments, assuming no audible or motion by the offense after being set, in which case you have more time. One of the first things you learn to do when growing from being a novice Madden/NCAA player to at least an intermediate player is getting all your adjustments in before the snap, and also crafting your playcalling and audibles in a way that minimizes the number of adjustments you need to make in the first place. Do you sometimes get caught with your pants down on defense when there's an adjustment or two that you couldn't get in? Sure, but that's also what happens in real life when an offense gets set, snaps, and has success on a play that exploits a weakness in the defense.

5. For guys who really feel like they need more time for adjustments on defense, maybe this rule could be used in a "B league" for novice users. In that same league, you could have other gameplay rules, like prohibiting motioning guys from one side of the field to the other in certain formations (to avoid screwing with defensive assignment logic), outlawing certain formations and plays altogether, etc. Guys who graduate from B league can play in the big boy leagues.

6. Somewhat unrelated, but in one of the more popular Operation Sports sim leagues, 4th and 1 (that group actually runs two leagues), the thinking was that user offenses were getting unrealistic with all the audibling, play flipping, motion, tons of hot routes, etc. So the commish instituted a longer playclock runoff, so that users didn't have as much time do all that before the playclock would run out. In other words, the emphasis was on decreasing, not increasing, the amount of time between set and snap. Not sure what I think about that approach, but it's an example of an opposite mindset on the issue in a sim league.

I'm not going to monitor this thread after I post this, but if anyone has any questions about what I wrote, feel free to PM me. Thx.

Additional note, somewhat related: A question about what happens if the defense wants to immediately audible after the huddle breaks (or perhaps vs. a no-huddle offense) but wants to use the "flipped" version of that audible. For that, you don't have to call the audible, wait for defense to set, and then flip. On the PS3, you just press R2 at the same time you press the button for the audible and your players will come out in the flipped version of the audible. Just for people who don't know that already.

Oh, and yeah I type fast, so it didn't take me that long to type this, LOL.

I'm a fan of fewer rules. Adapting to madden at the higher levels are two fold. Increasing real football iq and adapting to the video game version.

We don't have film study which is a huge factor in real football coaching. Instead, our "film study" is researching what works in madden football on google, YouTube etc. those who don't want to focus on that side of the game planning can elect not to but may suffer a loss for it.

U can look up how to stop just about anything on madden. That why i dont outlaw anything except nit punting in obvious punt situations and going no huddle all gm long which no team ever does. If something can't be stopped then we should make a rule against it.

Jut my philosophy on the topic.

I agree with a lot of what jwallace says - but he has some HUGE FLAWS in his posts...

wallace and weasel are totally right - Offense has teh advantage of being able to snap the ball whenever they want - fundemental advantage of offense - but there are basic defensive concepts that get taken away when the offense snaps ASAP in Madden - and it sucks that we have to make a rule about "when to snap" but when guys take advantage of inadequacies of the video game (By snapping ASAP for the soul purpose of preventing the defense from doing BASIC / INSTANT assignment changes that are decided before the play)- it becomes FAIR to make the offense wait - because although its their right to snap when they want - by snapping ASAP it takes away even more FUNDEMENTAL gameplanning that the defense does every down - AND MAKING RULES IS THE LESSER OF 2 EVILS (sucks we have to make a rule - but sucks even more to have CHZers snap ASAP so defense cant do the basic plays they want...)

jwallace0317 wrote: As a defense, you know who's going to be lining up against you, you have your defensive playcall ready based on your coordinator's game plan and down/distance, and you get to it. The defensive coordinator and MLB do not say things like "oh look, the offense's 11 personnel just got set in a bunch formation to the strong side instead of ace trips weak side, let's change the whole playcall or make 3 or 4 adjustments to it!" The window of time between when the offense is set and when the ball is snapped is so short (again, I'm talking about times other than when the QB audibles) that the defense doesn't make many changes, if at all, in that window of time.

This is such a bogus play on word - of course the defense isnt gonna change ITS COMPLETE FORMATION! If your in a DIME - you stay in a DIME - but individual assignments change based on what offensive players line up where! (the defensive formation and personnel were called based on what positional players were on the field, down / distance and defensive strategy) - but after this their are individual adjustments that each player does - examples (A DT adjustment could be, "If TE lines up on same side of field - offset OLB plays like a DE in 8 technique but if TE; lines up on oppisite sides of the field, drop back to a traditional OLB spot - and play the deep curl"... A LB adjustment could be "If RB lines up in backfield i play him outside in, man up and blitz and engage if he blocks but if he lines up in slot, i line up 6 yards off the ball, inside shade and use cover 1 technique"... there are 1000s of variations - but snapping ASAP doesnt allow me to make these very simple adjustments - THAT ARE PRESCRIBED BEFORE THE PLAY - DEPENDENT ON WHERE AND HOW THE OFFENSE LINES UP....

Even at the peewee level defense have BASE ADJUSTMENTS (he DIDN'T LIKE MY TERM PRESNAP READ - BUT ITS THE SAME THING...) - these are basic gameplanning "rules" that each position has - they are changes done EVERY PLAY depending on where and how the offense lines up - "if the offense players lines up in a certain way - my defensive responsibilities changes to X; if he lines up in another way my responsibility changes to Y" - its a basic a concept - AND LITERALLY THERE COULD BE SUCH CHANGES FOR EVERY POSITION ON THE FIELD...

I am not a fan of having to tell the offense to wait 5 seconds to snap - I THINK ITS BS - but what is more bs is that u cant put the defense on the field that you want - If the game allowed for us to program BASE DEFENSIVE ADJUSTMENTS we wouldnt need to do this BUT IT DOESNT = so we need to step in and make rules for the INADEQUACIES IN THE GAME...

jwallace0317 wrote:

3. For as long as I can remember in EA football, users on defense often strive to make a shitload of pre-snap adjustments, far beyond anything that you would see in a real football game. Guys are put into zones, re-blitzed, manned up on receivers on the other side of the field, put into press coverage, then back off, then press again, etc., we all know the drill. One of the only ways to combat this unrealistic practice is by not waiting to snap the ball on offense (and, as I mention above, waiting would itself be unrealistic unless you have a delay from audibling). So, by having the described "5 second wait rule" you're basically promoting non-realism (extra time for unrealistic amount of defensive adjustments) by encouraging more non-realism (making offenses wait to snap the ball).

I agree with this statement - there is a lot of CHZers out there who do endless adjustments that they seen on maddentips - but there are SMART players that make adjustments based on where defense lines up and the personnel they have - and thats what this rules is looking to maintain - and not having this rules ONLY HURTS THIS SET OF SMART PLAYERS WHO ARE EMPLOYING LEGIT TACTICS TO COUNTER THE OFFENSE - the guys that do the BUTTON MASHING adjustments that wallace describes ARE NOT MAKING A "READ" - they are simply SLAMMING BUTTONS to get some prescribed defensive tactic on the field that they saw on utube! (and fyi snapping ASAP doesnt stop these guys - because they start mashing buttons as soon as the team breaks the huddle and runs to LOS!) - so in the end - THESE CLOWNS WILL STILL PULL THEIR BS TACTICS (by pressing buttons in a predetermined manner to line up their bs scheme) - and they will be able to do it NP even if the offense snaps ASAP...

WE HURT THE LEGiT PLAYERS WHO MAKE A READ!!! AMZING THIS PROTECTS THE CHZERS WHO SNAP ASAP (to stop that read / adjustment) and the BUTTON MASHERS will continue no matter what!

For the most part - defensive presnap adjustments are not an issue - because 99% of the players dont snap the ball ASAP (for the only reason being to screw the defense out of making VERY BASIC ADJUSTMENTS) - in fact the few guys that SNAP ASAP SO THE DEFENSE CANT ADJUST even forgo Offenisve presnap adjustments because theRE more benefit for them to SNAP ASAP so the defense cant make their adjustments then there is for them to do the Offenisve adjustments they generally want to do...

I TRUELY DONT WANT MORE RULES (although the 6 rules we have is by far the fewest i know of any SIM league...) -Unfortunately, there is a handful of players THAT PLAY IN THE GREY AREA OF SIM - and statements like Weasels is a perfect example... For the 99% players that dont snap ASAP just so defense cant do basic adjustments - they wont even notice this rule! It wont effect them in the slightest (because they probably making 1 or 2 offensive adjustments - and that leave plenty of time for defense)

IN THE END - THIS IS THE EXACT RULE WE NEED - BECAUSE IT DOESNT EFFECT LEGIT PLAYERS IN ANYWAY - but it makes guys who SNAP ASAP FOR THE ONLY PURPOSE OF NOT ALLOWING DEFENSE TO MAKE ADJUSTMENT THAT ARE AUTOMATIC AND INSTANT IN THE REAL WORLD (but unfortunately madden doesnt have the complexity for us to program these as "automatic" adjustments) illegal - and as much as i hate making rules - so if this rule upsets a handful of CHZers who cares if that upsets them?

jwallace0317 wrote:I'm posting a reply on the assumption that this is going to be taken constructively as part of a mature discussion, and I'm not going to be trashed for opposing the proposed rule

5. For guys who really feel like they need more time for adjustments on defense, maybe this rule could be used in a "B league" for novice users. In that same league, you could have other gameplay rules, like prohibiting motioning guys from one side of the field to the other in certain formations (to avoid screwing with defensive assignment logic), outlawing certain formations and plays altogether, etc. Guys who graduate from B league can play in the big boy leagues.

Interesting contradictions here...

FYI making presnap adjustments is not something novice players do - making these adjustments are what veteran / experienced players do,,, They do this because they do not accept the "base" play (the want something more complex so they can adjust their defense to defeat the offense - based upon the personnel the offense has and its strategies its tendencies) - not sure how this could be confused with "novice play"

making rules is what SIM leagues do - i propose if somebody doesn't like very basic rules - TO MAKE PEOPLE PLAY REALISTICALLY - then they go play in a FREESTYLE league and stay out of our SIM leagues - this very argument is the biggest example of lobby trash we have in our league!!!

General_Hon wrote:I'm a fan of fewer rules. Adapting to madden at the higher levels are two fold. Increasing real football iq and adapting to the video game version.

We don't have film study which is a huge factor in real football coaching. Instead, our "film study" is researching what works in madden football on google, YouTube etc. those who don't want to focus on that side of the game planning can elect not to but may suffer a loss for it.

U can look up how to stop just about anything on madden. That why i dont outlaw anything except nit punting in obvious punt situations and going no huddle all gm long which no team ever does. If something can't be stopped then we should make a rule against it.

Jut my philosophy on the topic.

AND I AGREE FEWER RULES ARE BETTER - BUT NO RULES MAKE US A FREESTYLE LEAGUE... - and to reiterate - we only have 6 rules (this would be #7) - far less then any SIM league i know of!!!

Just the other day you mentioned that the offense has all the advantage - not having this rules just widens that disparity - and ultimately ONLY PEOPLE THIS RULE IMPACTS IS THE CLOWNS WHO SNAP ASAP TO CIRCUMVENT PRESNAP ADJUSTMENTS - do we really care if it upsets them? The tactic is questionable to say the least!

Strong supporting argument for both sides of the ball, great debate.
Don’t Brady and Manning rush plays when a Defense is in a bad set or looked confused?
I would also say it is fair to say the defense assignments would change depending where the receivers line up.
I do believe that 5 seconds gives the defense too much time to make adjustments and takes away the advantage of the Offense. When playing the CPU, you’re lucky to get 3 seconds after the offense gets to the line. Maybe a 3 second rule would be truer to the game. Either way, I will still get my butt kicked
Just fueling the fire, you guys keep these kind of respectful disagreements up I can learn something from you all and grow to be a winner one day. Seriously, good debate and glad to see that yawl took it to the forum rather than blasting the chat. Show some class and is why I enjoying being part of this group

Decided to check in. Without using all caps, I'll chime in again. Bottom line: when playing defense in Madden, as soon as the huddle breaks, you can see strength (you don't have to wait until the offense is "set" to see this) and you've got time to audible, flip the play (zero wait for this), shift line/LBs, etc., and make individual playmaker adjustments. There's time to do what you need to do before the snap, so there's just no need for the rule.

It's easy to talk about a rule in the abstract, it's another thing to sit through an 8 minute quarter game in which 80 times a game (40 snaps each user) you're scratching your balls on offense waiting to snap the friggin ball. That's 400 seconds of ball-scratching a game, and all because a handful of guys can't get their adjustments in on defense? I can't even imagine how irritating that would be. This isn't a freestyle versus sim issue, because as I've already noted snapping once you're set is a basic part of offensive football and there's enough time between huddle break and snap to get shit done on the other side of the ball.

I've already said I don't like the rule, but if you're going to make a rule under the guise of making the game more "sim" then you should be complete in your reasoning, and not narrowly focused on one aspect. For example, if the goal is to make absolutely sure that every defensive user can make every possible adjustment he wants to make before the offense snaps the ball, then what about situations where the offense gets set, reads the defense, and then does a play flip and/or motions a player? There's a shitload of guys whose running game is heavily based on using playflipping and/or motion in certain strong and weak I sets to fuck up the defensive assignment AI in the game. If the offense sees the defense get "set" and decides to flip play and/or use motion, shouldn't the defense get more time to get re-set again (under the logic of this proposed rule)? Now you've got 10 seconds of dicking around before snapping the ball! Pardon the French, but this just demonstrates how fucking absurd this would get.

From what I understand, general is not adopting this rule, and I'm happy to know that.

jwallace0317 wrote:Decided to check in. Without using all caps, I'll chime in again. Bottom line: when playing defense in Madden, as soon as the huddle breaks, you can see strength (you don't have to wait until the offense is "set" to see this) and you've got time to audible, flip the play (zero wait for this), shift line/LBs, etc., and make individual playmaker adjustments. There's time to do what you need to do before the snap, so there's just no need for the rule.

It's easy to talk about a rule in the abstract, it's another thing to sit through an 8 minute quarter game in which 80 times a game (40 snaps each user) you're scratching your balls on offense waiting to snap the friggin ball. That's 400 seconds of ball-scratching a game, and all because a handful of guys can't get their adjustments in on defense? I can't even imagine how irritating that would be. This isn't a freestyle versus sim issue, because as I've already noted snapping once you're set is a basic part of offensive football and there's enough time between huddle break and snap to get shit done on the other side of the ball.

Great points here from jwallace. Could not have said it better myself. My biggest apprehension here is that this rule, which might seem fair and logical in theory, could potentially cripple the pace of the game when extrapolated over the course of the entire game. For this I vote Nay

I think this rule is ridiculous. I do probably more adjustments 2 my O n D than anyone else in the LGs n i have no problem setyin my D up without this rule. If it takes u that long to mk adjustments thn ur probably hurtin ur D cuz ur doin 2 much. I set my D up based upon ur tendencies throughout the gm n the personnel u come out in. I watch wherr u like to throw n once i memorize i just wait 4 u 2 try it again cuz everybody always goes bck to those tendencies thy use n every gm. Evee rybody has strong points n there gm n u just gtta know thm n use em to ur advantage. If u need 5 sec 2 set up a ply or D try goin 2 practice mode vs CPU, if u cant setup ur D b4 thy hike the ball thn tht D not 4 u n is 2 mny adjustments, tryin tht will help people get there stik skills up n make thm quiker on the stiks cuz CPU n practice mode will hike the ball faster thn any user will n a gm thts just my opinion

I just read this rule change and I think it's a bit silly. Last thing I want is the game to run longer. We should be able to snap the ball when Madden allows us to.

RIPxPatTillman40 wrote:I think this rule is ridiculous. I do probably more adjustments 2 my O n D than anyone else in the LGs n i have no problem setyin my D up without this rule. If it takes u that long to mk adjustments thn ur probably hurtin ur D cuz ur doin 2 much. I set my D up based upon ur tendencies throughout the gm n the personnel u come out in. I watch wherr u like to throw n once i memorize i just wait 4 u 2 try it again cuz everybody always goes bck to those tendencies thy use n every gm. Evee rybody has strong points n there gm n u just gtta know thm n use em to ur advantage. If u need 5 sec 2 set up a ply or D try goin 2 practice mode vs CPU, if u cant setup ur D b4 thy hike the ball thn tht D not 4 u n is 2 mny adjustments, tryin tht will help people get there stik skills up n make thm quiker on the stiks cuz CPU n practice mode will hike the ball faster thn any user will n a gm thts just my opinion

I agree. I make a ton of adjustments on D as well. One piece of advise, I would try your adjustments in practice mode vs CPU choosing and auto-motion play lol, the cpu snaps lightning fast. Auto motion still makes it challenging since it's faster than your opponent breaking the huddle, line up and snap.

First off - this is a discussion of adopting a proposed rule - contrary to my detractors will say, ps3maddengroup is not a dictatorship - and thats the reason i created this thread - to have healthy discussion on this topic - and if memberships supports implementation of such rule - it will be adopted...

btw - my suggestions are not always implemented - and not sure this one should be or not - especially when i only know of 2 players that employ a tactic of "snapping ASAP for the soul purpose of not allowing defense to set up" - and both these players are admitted FREESTYLE players and only play in our SIM leagues because they know its a great place to play (they were tired of having gms SIMed, owners not contact them, favortism shown to commish buddies etc etc etc in the freestyle leagues they play in) - so they have adopted our SIM rules just to be in a quality league)

The problem is they look for any advantage they can get away with - and this is an example - perhaps having a rule is not best way to deal with these players - perhaps morale suasion would be better - and they will just stop doing such bs and looking for other "grey areas" in our rules - this would be ideal... - As i have said a few time - making more rules is NOT something i want to do....

General_Hon wrote:

I agree. I make a ton of adjustments on D as well. One piece of advise, I would try your adjustments in practice mode vs CPU choosing and auto-motion play lol, the cpu snaps lightning fast. Auto motion still makes it challenging since it's faster than your opponent breaking the huddle, line up and snap.

FYI u cant practice these sort of adjsutments because CPU just lines up based on their depth chart - so u basicly know ahead of time who is lining up where when u see the positional breakdown in play select screen (example - 3 WR 1TE 1RB or 2WR 1TE 2RB) but human players are more dynamic - guys make substitutions! and hell this year u cant even have "matchup" assignments - where u designate certain players to always play against certain offensive players!

am i the only person that makes presnap reads based on who lines up where? (and u cant see this until players actually line up on their spot in the field...) Clearly i must be... (and i am not talking about button mashing to set up some blitz u saw on utube - EXAMPLE - I am talking about making adjustments because you notice there speed WR moved from X position to the slot... Or because they put there speed RB in instead of the power running back... If a player snaps ASAP - you would be HUGELY LUCKY TO MAKE 1 ADJUSTMENT - there is no way in hell you could make 2!

Maybe i "read" (no pun intended) too much into things (15 yrs as a Head Coach in HS football and intercollegiate experience as a player made me put more emphasis on strategy then simply playing...)

Guess i will have to dumb down how i play if i run into one of these CHZers... or even better - maybe they will see that snapping ASAP for soul purpose of not allowing these adjustments as CHZ - and will play like the other 98% of us do!

p.s. - aprreaciate all the feedback - it only makes what we do better...

GREENERRRR wrote:
The problem is they look for any advantage they can get away with - and this is an example - perhaps having a rule is not best way to deal with these players - perhaps morale suasion would be better - and they will just stop doing such bs and looking for other "grey areas" in our rules - this would be ideal... - As i have said a few time - making more rules is NOT something i want to do....

Definitely. We all want to play 'sim', so I think people should be spoken to if they're avoiding that. A rule change of this sort is too drastic though, especially when like you said, only 2 people try to exploit this.

Glad guys have contributed to the discussion. Sim leagues come up with various rules grafted onto the game because the game itself is not designed well enough to keep gameplay "sim." As a longtime sim league commish for NCAA, I've grappled with this for years. I've come to accept that for every potential rule that you try to graft onto the game, there are benefits and costs to implementation.

In terms of benefits, obviously you hope the benefits of a rule include reduced "video gameness" and more realism. But the costs can be varied: difficulty of enforcement/policing, impact on overall pace and enjoyment of the game, and consequential issues (this is where you come up with a rule that in turn causes other "non-sim" impacts or problems which then have to be addressed and made the subject of other rules or exceptions). If the costs outweigh the benefits, then you clench your jaw and accept that the rule isn't worth it. Hell, if it's a really close call, I still tend to lean toward not implementing the rule simply because every rule you create is just one more basis for post-game bitching and whining and disputes ("I didn't get the full 5 seconds on that snap, it cost me the game!").

In our situation here, in addition to the non-sim aspects I've already mentioned, no one has come up with a reasonable and workable answer to the riddle I posed earlier about what would happen if the offense reads the defense and then audibles or uses motion to move a player across the formation. Here's the scenario:

1. The huddle breaks....the offense lines up and gets "set."
2. Defensive user waits for the offense to get set in order to make his "read." He sees WR1 as the inside receiver in trips to the right, and then takes his 5 seconds per the rule to make whatever adjustments he needs to make.
3. User on offense scratches his balls (optional), waits the obligatory 5 seconds, and then decides that he doesn't like what he sees on defense. (Clearly it would not be "sim" for the offense to have to accept the newly configured defense and be required to snap the ball without counter-adjustments). He now calls an audible, and the offensive players start moving around into different positions on the field.
4. Defensive user, who feels that he must wait for the offense to get "set" before making 5 seconds of necessary adjustments, watches the offense line up in the completely new play and get "set" again. WR1 is now lined up solo, wide to the left, other receivers now bunched tight right.
5. What now? Should the defense get 5 more seconds to make whatever adjustments he needs to make in response to the completely new formation? If the answer is no, the defense should not get more time, then you've made a joke of the rule because then all the user on offense has to do in order to snap the ball when he wants is just come out in a different play/formation, audible to the new play, and snap immediately. If the answer is yes, the defense needs more time, then we've now added 10 seconds of wait time post-huddle before the offense can snap the ball. And, what's more, we now have a greater risk of playclock issues. Do we make an exception to the rule, so that the offense can snap the ball as soon as it wants whenever the play clock is about to run out? If no, then that's a shitload of delay of game penalties. If yes, then you've just destroyed the rule again, because guys will just take a little longer to pick their plays (and then perhaps audible), so that they can snap the ball when they want without having to wait 5 seconds. This is all one big example of how trying to graft a rule onto the game just doesn't work as a practical matter.

As a side note, I'm sympathetic to the specific issue of trying to address the offense's personnel with specific defensive personnel assignments. We know that EA football is essentially played blind when it comes to matchups. Yes, there is a defensive assignments feature in Coaching Options (actually - do we still even have this?) but it doesn't/didn't really work. As a defense, you're generally at the mercy of where specific guys line up on offense, but -- at the same time -- the defense can do something like put stud corners on the inside (ex: Dime, CB Inside package) and the offense doesn't know any better (I guess unless you're playing on a big TV and you can distinguish defensive players based on unique player equipment like arm bands or gloves, lol). It's a symmetry that's fucked up but for now at least it's a symmetry.

I'll chime in some thoughts about "gray areas." Here's the thing: if you're going to have rules, they should be specific and well defined. If 4th down attempts are an issue, you make a black and white rule that everyone can understand and follow, even if it's not a perfect rule. This way, there's either a violation of the rule or there isn't, and there's nothing gray about it. See, for ex: "No subbing HB at FB." "Do not go no-huddle after a sack unless it's last 2 minutes of the game and you're losing." Etc., etc. If you can't make a specific rule because the topic is a soft one (respect and sportsmanship are best examples -- you know when it's not there, without needing an equation to figure it out), then fuck the gray areas. If a guy repeatedly acts kinda disrespectfully, or a little bit unsportsmanlike, you just boot the asshole and sleep well at night knowing you made the league a better place for everyone else.

jwallace0317 wrote:

In our situation here, in addition to the non-sim aspects I've already mentioned, no one has come up with a reasonable and workable answer to the riddle I posed earlier about what would happen if the offense reads the defense and then audibles or uses motion to move a player across the formation. Here's the scenario:

1. The huddle breaks....the offense lines up and gets "set."
2. Defensive user waits for the offense to get set in order to make his "read." He sees WR1 as the inside receiver in trips to the right, and then takes his 5 seconds per the rule to make whatever adjustments he needs to make.
3. User on offense scratches his balls (optional), waits the obligatory 5 seconds, and then decides that he doesn't like what he sees on defense. (Clearly it would not be "sim" for the offense to have to accept the newly configured defense and be required to snap the ball without counter-adjustments). He now calls an audible, and the offensive players start moving around into different positions on the field.
4. Defensive user, who feels that he must wait for the offense to get "set" before making 5 seconds of necessary adjustments, watches the offense line up in the completely new play and get "set" again. WR1 is now lined up solo, wide to the left, other receivers now bunched tight right.
5. What now? Should the defense get 5 more seconds to make whatever adjustments he needs to make in response to the completely new formation? If the answer is no, the defense should not get more time, then you've made a joke of the rule because then all the user on offense has to do in order to snap the ball when he wants is just come out in a different play/formation, audible to the new play, and snap immediately. If the answer is yes, the defense needs more time, then we've now added 10 seconds of wait time post-huddle before the offense can snap the ball. And, what's more, we now have a greater risk of playclock issues. Do we make an exception to the rule, so that the offense can snap the ball as soon as it wants whenever the play clock is about to run out? If no, then that's a shitload of delay of game penalties. If yes, then you've just destroyed the rule again, because guys will just take a little longer to pick their plays (and then perhaps audible), so that they can snap the ball when they want without having to wait 5 seconds. This is all one big example of how trying to graft a rule onto the game just doesn't work as a practical matter.

Now this is just silly - your asking where does "move then counter move" end? That sort argument could go on and on... but my point stands - U SHOULD BE ABLE TO AT LEAST CALL THE BASE DEFENSE THAT YOU WANT (and snapping ASAP can prevent that)!

and i am not sure how motioning messes with defensive assignments - It takes 4-5 seconds for a player to run across field - plenty of time to make adjustments for any vacancies in zzone defense- and you can stop the guy from running over (i think its up on D pad and then 1 of the commands there)

jwallace0317 wrote:
I'll chime in some thoughts about "gray areas." Here's the thing: if you're going to have rules, they should be specific and well defined. If 4th down attempts are an issue, you make a black and white rule that everyone can understand and follow, even if it's not a perfect rule. This way, there's either a violation of the rule or there isn't, and there's nothing gray about it. See, for ex: "No subbing HB at FB." "Do not go no-huddle after a sack unless it's last 2 minutes of the game and you're losing." Etc., etc. If you can't make a specific rule because the topic is a soft one (respect and sportsmanship are best examples -- you know when it's not there, without needing an equation to figure it out), then fuck the gray areas. If a guy repeatedly acts kinda disrespectfully, or a little bit unsportsmanlike, you just boot the asshole and sleep well at night knowing you made the league a better place for everyone else.

I agree 100% - and the amazing thing is that the players who are in this grey area ARE PROBABLY THE BEST PLAYERS IN OUR COMMUNITY - if they just spent half the amount of time labbing legit plays instead of scouring the internet / and lobby rooms for the latest "trick" or "gimmick" they would be even more successful - I HOPE THEY CAN CHANGE - they are solid dudes who i like every much...

GREENERRRR wrote:
Now this is just silly - your asking where does "move then counter move" end? That sort argument could go on and on... but my point stands - U SHOULD BE ABLE TO AT LEAST CALL THE BASE DEFENSE THAT YOU WANT (and snapping ASAP can prevent that)!

What's just silly is you refusing to accept that your proposed rule leads to absurd results and is actually self-defeating. Your reasoning, up to now, is that you need to wait for the offense to be set (so you can see the formation and who is lining up where) so you can then take 5 seconds to "CALL THE BASE DEFENSE THAT YOU WANT." Well, let's think about this...if you need to wait for the offense to get set in its formation and see who is lining up where just so you can set your "base defense," then what's the fucking point if the offense can just change everything with an audible, thus moving guys around, and immediately snap the ball? If your 5 seconds of adjustments is based in part on where certain players are lined up (you gave the example of where the X receiver was lining up) then what's the point of the rule if the offense can just change where X lines up and quickly snap the ball?

So, you saying "that kind of argument can go on and on" is exactly the point: it's why the rule is not a very good one, because it would allow the offense to easily eliminate the supposed benefit provided by the rule in the first place. Of course, saying "that kind of argument can go on and on" is also code for "I don't want to think a couple steps ahead and consider whether my proposed rule will ultimately accomplish the stated goal." And it doesn't.

GREENERRRR wrote:
and am not sure how motioning messes with defensive assignments - It takes 4-5 seconds for a player to run across field - plenty of time to make adjustments for any vacancies in zzone defense- and you can stop the guy from running over (i think its up on D pad and then 1 of the commands there)

I'm not sure what time measurement system you're using but in several strong and weak I formations it doesn't take 4-5 seconds to motion a FB or TE from left to right or vice versa (or in close formations motioning WR's). And I'm not going to post a cheeseball how-to manual here on how guys use motion in those certain formations to screw up how defenders address the gaps on certain running plays. Suffice to say, it's something that users on defense have to deal with using adjustments, and yet your rule says nothing about how that would be addressed....as already stated, if you're going to design a rule, it should be complete and not half-assedly narrow. Regardless, by this point in the discussion, the completeness of the rule is a moot point anyway, because the rule has been roundly rejected as not something to implement.

No offense this rule sucks .....who does it benefit....why is it even up for discussion...the lg has spoke we don't want it....next topic should be 8min qtrs....we don't want that neither....

Can I buy JWallace a beer? How come he isn't in in the main league this guy is AWESOME! Thank god for JWallace !!! Is he a lawyer? Awesome arguments that are well wrote and sound of logic and reason. I applaud these and want him I what I consider to be the best league in the group. GREENERS LG. GET THIS GUY IN THE BIG BOY LEAGUE HE KNOWS HIS X's and O's.

For the record I don't consider myself a "freestyle" player. I hate playing ranked games and lobby games I like the sim rules alot. The black and white sim rules that make the game feel more realistic. There are a ton of rules I don't agree with but that's mostly about the use of personnel that I feel me as the coach should be able to decide what player is lined up where and when as long as it is "reasonable" and "sim" like. Case in point the use of a very particular player with a unique skill set DEXTER TARVIN. I'm so happy that JWallace came to my defense about snapping the ball fast and guess what I don't so it every play I only do it when I get the read I want ofcourse I'm going I snap the ball ASAP when I see upon us linking up that I'm going to real a big run. Boom snap it before the the defense shifts. I l ow what play I'm running you don't. If you line up wrong I'm going to burn you. I know before I snap the ball if its going to be a 80 yard TD run and I want to get that snap off right away. I'm sorry I don't care if its hard k defend that's your problem I'm not here to make the game more easy for you to play. I'm not curbing my game for novice players either that's how you develope bad habits and then when I play the DColons and payroll mans of the worlds I get stomped. I hate these stupid sportsman gentlemen rules you can't pass etc late in the game to get a fort down to keep the sticks moving . Or I have to bench my star player because Ed got 250 rushing yards and it's only the 3rd qt. you think guys are stupid in here. I was playing a game the guy as letting me break big runs with my RB so he could disqualify him from the game due to STAT max rules in the first half of the game . These rules can all be manipulated to gain advantage. Stick to the black and white and even then they still can abused. I had a guy call a timeout with 1 second left in the 3rd qt because I had a 4th and inches play on his side of the field I was going to run a sneak. Come on man that's a scumbag move or real. The less rules te better it promotes individuality. If you have 101 and 1 rules then everyone is like a robot and you might as well be playing against the CPU.

To answer the question of the best players in the group operating in the "gray" area.... Well duh!!! Ofcourse that's goin to be the case the best players are the ones who can manipulate the game the best. Thts what makes them the best.

weasel_ wrote:
Ofcourse that's goin to be the case the best players are the ones who can manipulate the game the best. Thts what makes them the best.

spoken like a true freestyle player - WHY NOT MAN UP and play the game LEGIT instead of finding FLAWS in the game u can expoit? (LIKE SNAPPING THE BALL ASAP so the defense cant DO BASIC ADJUSTMENTS that they would even do in peewee football) - thats the GREY AREA i speak of - and if u do bs like that - U GET AN ASTRISK BESIDE YOUR NAME - because your a chzer (not illegal for u to do - but a chz ball move)

If your a legit guy - u recognize the failings inherent to madden (the parts of the game that ARE BASIC FOOTBALL) and u DONT TRY TO EXPLOIT THESE WEAKNESSES - instead u become part of the solution AND DONT LET THEM IMPACT THE GAME - and if that means u wait 5 seconds before u snap - U GET MY RESPECT (and the converse is true - if you find these flaws in the game which we dont have rules for - aka "grey areas" and EXPLOIT them to your advantage - YOUR A CHZER) and thats pretty clear distinction anyone can see...

weasel_ wrote: Case in point the use of a very particular player with a unique skill set DEXTER TARVIN.

are u going to keep harping on that SLOW ass WR should be allowed to play TE? - their are 100+ different WRs that are in the speed range of 87 to 89 THAT WOULD BE AWESOME RECIEVING TEs (compared to the current group of players that are true TEs)

- IF WE ALLOWED WR to play TE - Then the value of a TRUE GOOD TE is worth virtually nothing - Why draft GATES when u can get a player with almost the exact same skill set in any 3rd round of any rookie draft?

Playing WRs at TE (even with speed restrictions) water downs the position - virtually every SIM league has a NO WR at TE rules - it as basic as a 4th down punt rule!

weasel_ wrote:The less rules te better it promotes individuality. If you have 101 and 1 rules then everyone is like a robot and you might as well be playing against the CPU.

You act like we have a huge list of rules - WE HAVE 6 DAM RULES! And its COMMON SENSE stuff for any SIM player (if your truely a SIM style player - u dont even have to look at rules - and u will never break any!)

weasel_ wrote: How come he isn't in in the main league this guy is AWESOME! Thank god for JWallace !!!

Take some offense here - Jwallace plays in HON's league - AND THATS A FANTASTIC LEAGUE and Hon does an A1 job - his league is as good as any other - AND BETTER THEN 99% OF THEM IN MADDEN -

look how many leagues have die every spring around this time - This is the first year Hons league has been around And its gonna be a year round league - my league's first year of existance i couldnt make it year round - THATS A HUGE FEATHER IN HIS CAP

In addition - I dont necessarily let the "best" madden players in my league - IMO the "best" madden players are the guys that:

1) PLAY ALL THEIR GAMES
2) FOLLOW THE RULES
3) PLAY SPORTSMANLIKE

- considering that criteria - where do u think u stand weseal?

- PLAY ALL your games - CORRECT
- Follow the Rules - CORRECT (but u do it begrudgingly and look for every grey area to get around them and get an advantage)
- Play Sportsmanlike - NOT SURE - (you getting better - but its forced through stat MAX rules - and u admit feeling like u SLAUGHTER weak player to no end) - thats not cool in my books... - but i do like your enthusiam and passion for the game - and that counts for something....

jwallace0317 wrote:when playing defense in Madden, as soon as the huddle breaks, you can see strength (you don't have to wait until the offense is "set" to see this) and you've got time to audible, flip the play (zero wait for this), shift line/LBs, etc., and make individual playmaker adjustments. There's time to do what you need to do before the snap, so there's just no need for the rule.

U must have ESP - because i dont know where players are going to line up TIL THEY ACTUALLY LINE UP!

Sure u can predict the strong side by counting releasors - but that is only 1 read - their are literally dozens of other observations that a defense will make and adjust their gamplay accordingly - and most of this cant be done until players are lined up - because many of them are predicated on that alignment!

jwallace0317 wrote:

It's easy to talk about a rule in the abstract, it's another thing to sit through an 8 minute quarter game in which 80 times a game (40 snaps each user) you're scratching your balls on offense waiting to snap the friggin ball. That's 400 seconds of ball-scratching a game

i have played over 100 guys in our leagues this year - their are only 2 guys that i know who specifically snap ASAP so the defense cant do adjustments - THATS THE ONLY 2 GUYS THIS RULE WILL EFFECT (and who cares about those chzers!)

Every other player i have played isnt button mashing X to get the play off ASAP - they actually wait til their players are lined up - possibly call an audible - do some hot routes - change the cadence etc etc etc - they wont even notice the rule!

The only guys who will have to change theiur play is the clowns who SNAP ASAP so the defnese cant do adjustments - which is huge bs (as per the reasons i outlined in prior posts...)

Maybe we're the two smartest guys in the league !? Ony two QBs in the NFL snap the ball fast. So I guess the avg is right on point. Not to mention I don't do it every play . Obviously if you are in the correct defense and I k ow the HR play ain't going to work I audible or reverse the play or motion someone . But within 1-2 seconds of the huddle breaking and me holding x to get tithe line quick I can tell if my run okay will be over 20 yards or not and if it is I hike the ball ASAP so the defense doesn't have a chance to change positions regardless if the user means to or not. It's genius really that I have this talent to see my at work before I hike the ball. You discredit it as cheese but its really savvy that %95 percent of the thee players in the league wish they could do. I lead the league in rushing based on my talent not cheese. Tired of this cheese label you throw at us particularly me when your game is predicated around the same exact bullshit . Unstoppable run attack and unstoppable short throws . Come on man lets me real here