Rule Changes and Additions have been made!!

Kellen Winslow for sale cheap! I hate when people make stupid rules just for the sake of having rules, now I have a wasted player.

You can easily play him in any set with two TEs...you can further that even more by motioning him out if you want.

Great..now we sound like the government..just kidding... Can you also just pass the different color jerseys for the owners that are color blind.. Never really thought about it but that would suck

It also wasn't made for the sake of having rules. It was made because it screws with the playcall screen for the defense and people exploit that. Just like you have been conditioned to see light and dark instead of actual jersey colors (another rule we added that I forgot to put in there til now), some other guys have been conditioned to select their defense based on the playcall screen.

Whatever. My g/f has been telling me anyway I have too many leagues, I'll probably just drop Surf now that my offense is crippled. It wasn't a good enough offense to stand the blow of losing it's second best WR.

Oh, and it's not at all sim either, can you see Rex Ryan going 'ummm, excuse me ref, their coach didn't tell me they were gonna go shotgun with 2 RBs in the game and split one out, can you please make them stop?' All a coach has going for him is he can see what personnel is going into the huddle, not how they will be used, and that's exactly what Madden gives us.

Phantom... Do you never look at the screen on what the opponent calls to match up on defense? If you saw 2 rb and 3 te set would you really call nickel, dime or quarters against this set?

i would call an nickel more then likely and if he some how comes out in 4 wr set i aint worried bc i got enough speed to cover whatever he is trying to do.. bc if he comes out that way with 3te's 2rbs.. i aint worried the fastest te is vernon davis with 90 speed, 88 agility, 92 accel.. in which my fastest cb would be on him that has the best man coverage so i dont think he would do much... then the next fastest te is dallas clark and greg olsen with 87 speed.. and lets say someone has chris johnson as one of the 2rb in the the 3te 2rb set.. unless he comes out 5 wide i still aint worried bc more then likely my fs or ss will be covering him... so i really have no problem with the play calling screen bc it really aint going to affect my play calling either way.. but if people fill it needs to be changed then its whatever... i dont have a problem either way..

phantomshark wrote:Oh, and it's not at all sim either, can you see Rex Ryan going 'ummm, excuse me ref, their coach didn't tell me they were gonna go shotgun with 2 RBs in the game and split one out, can you please make them stop?' All a coach has going for him is he can see what personnel is going into the huddle, not how they will be used, and that's exactly what Madden gives us.

If Rex Ryan saw 1 WR in the game, 2 TEs and 3 RBs coming into the game, he'd have the right personnel in there to defend against them regardless of what formation they were in. We don't have that flexibility do we? I don't get why you can't just compromise. You can easily run 2 TE sets and motion him out...same with RBs. There are plenty of standard formations that use a TE in the slot, or like you said formations that put the HB out there, without you having to put him in a WR depth chart spot. It sounds more and more like you just wanna do it for the sole purpose of making it impossible for the defense, giving yourself a competitive advantage.

FOR THE RECORD - THESE RULES ARE NOT IN EFFECT UNTIL A majority OF THE gOVERNING counciLO AGREES TO THEM... I agree that rules needs to be made - but IT HAS TO BE DONE THE RIGHT WAY,,,, Chedah is gonna contact GC members directly - and if they get on side - its a rule - but until than its business as usual... we created the GC so - no 1 person was making rules -(which was me) - but lately the GC has been bogged down by personal agendas and petty bickering - so cheddajk is gonna grab these issue by the throat - and solve them - will some guys get screwed??? - for sure... and i appologoize to Phtnmshark - he has made some solid points - but pls know - we are not doing this to scrwew any1 - we really are tryn to make the best of a bad circumstance...

Cheddah_Cheez wrote:

phantomshark wrote:Oh, and it's not at all sim either, can you see Rex Ryan going 'ummm, excuse me ref, their coach didn't tell me they were gonna go shotgun with 2 RBs in the game and split one out, can you please make them stop?' All a coach has going for him is he can see what personnel is going into the huddle, not how they will be used, and that's exactly what Madden gives us.

If Rex Ryan saw 1 WR in the game, 2 TEs and 3 RBs coming into the game, he'd have the right personnel in there to defend against them regardless of what formation they were in. We don't have that flexibility do we? I don't get why you can't just compromise. You can easily run 2 TE sets and motion him out...same with RBs. There are plenty of standard formations that use a TE in the slot, or like you said formations that put the HB out there, without you having to put him in a WR depth chart spot. It sounds more and more like you just wanna do it for the sole purpose of making it impossible for the defense, giving yourself a competitive advantage.

So tell me again how this is different. If you see 2 TEs and 2 WRs and 1 RB in the game, you put in the personnel to deal with them. If they line up shotgun you audible, still with the same personnel. WTF is the difference?

Now, I follow your rule, and I have all 6 of my WRs as WRs. I come out in the Saints playbook, you see 3 WR, 1 TE, 1 HB, but it's a 5-wide set. But it's ok because Madden does it and not me? I swear to you, if this rule passes, I will make it my business to find every formation in every playbook that puts a HB or a TE in a WR spot and I will run nothing but those formations out of protest. And I will be leaving Surf unless I manage to trade Winslow for a comparable WR, because otherwise my offense is crippled. I don't want to have to run a 2TE set and motion him out to use him, because I still can't run all the stuff I run with him, and it means he cannot be part of any 4WR sets.

And no, I'm not doing it to confuse the D. Last season Winslow was my #2 WR because I had only Breaston and Burleson, and Winslow had the best release, and Burleson was a better slot receiver, so Winslow 2 and Burleson 3. This year Winslow is my #4 since I have Roddy, but I still want him out there in 4 WR sets. I'll tell everyone I play if you want, Winslow is my #4 so if you see 3-1-1 it could be a 4-wide. I still don't see the problem, you have to put someone in to deal with the TE, what's the difference if you deal with him on the line or 4 steps to the left?

there comes a time where you needa stop bitching and just play the game. it's fairly easy to stop. if you know they use their TE in the slot it's pretty easy to anticipate their playcalling formations, it's called integillence, i know i have it, do you guys?

i dont really have a problem with the play calling screen either but thats just me..

ezweightloss wrote:there comes a time where you needa stop bitching and just play the game. it's fairly easy to stop. if you know they use their TE in the slot it's pretty easy to anticipate their playcalling formations, it's called integillence, i know i have it, do you guys?

+1

I think this is much ado about nothing.

However, for the record, I have to side with Phntm on this one. If you have linebackers on the field in anticipation of a 2te set and they come out in shotgun, that doesn't magically make the te a wr. He will still be a te - just lined up outside. There is no reason your linebacker cant cover him.
If he happens to be a fast recieving te that is more like a wr, then see EZ's comment above.

@Phantom: If I see 3WR 1TE 1RB, I know it's not going to be you coming out in I-Formation, and I need to have more corners in there. However, if you do it on your depth charts, you can have it set up to look like 2RB 2WR 2TE, yet still come out 5 wide. You can have it say 3TE 2rb 0wr on a 3rd and 1, and come out 5 wide. If you do it via the in game formations and plays, they will always say something like 3wr 1TE 1 RB. Like I said above, if it means so much to you to have a TE or RB out there, rather than screw your opponents play select screen up, why can't you do the sportsmanlike thing, and motion them out there? What's the difference to you? It's obvious that you can seriously take advantage of the playcall screen, and it's something that could be avoided by using motion. Furthermore, the defense has about 6 seconds to make substitutions once they see the personnel screen, so if someone wanted to make substitutions it's very difficult. It's also different than in the NFL. If Reggie Bush was coming in they have a specific package for him and they'd literally see him running in off the sidelines and those subs could go in. Then, if he splits wide, they are assigned to him. Can't do that/adjust like that in Madden. A) I can't tell if the RBs you have in are a HB and a FB, 2 HBs, or any other variation. I also don't know if Reggie or w/e back it is will be in the backfield or split out, which changes who will be covering him. If I see 2RB 2WR 2TE, and I pick an LB heavy set and you're in 5 wide, I have a slow LB on reggie. If you put him in WR1 or WR2 like the examples below, this, yes I will have a CB on him, but then the best WRs are covered by LBs. If I see 2WR 2TE 2RB and decide to go nickel, and you actually are running, again the D is at a disadvantage.

@Ez: See the comment to phantom above. I'm not coming at you bro, but last time we played you did exactly that to me (in a game I still won, for anyone who thinks I'm being a sore loser or something about it). For the most part, I picked my D based on Down and Distance because the screen was always messed up because of your chart, but when the game was close, and you got to a key 3rd and short (it was 2 or 3) sure enough my playcall screen showed 2RB 2TE 2WR and you came out 5 wide, with your best receivers in the slots, matched up against LBs and ran quick routes that LBs can't keep up with, or you scrambled with Austin. That's a pretty lame way to go about things in my opinion. You blatantly know that's what was going on, and you fully used it as an exploit to try and earn yourself a cheap win.

clearly the majority of you who are defending this...scenario....do this type of "cheese" -

Sorry, phantom, I like you...but I'm not buying your excuse.

You have 3-4 WRS that I'd love to have in MG Surf (Roddy White, Breaston, Burleson, Armanti Edwards) - You haven't a need to use Winslow at WR1 or WR2.

That being said...I have no issues with you using (1) TE at WR. Its the people that use multiple subs...and then come out in Shotgun 5 WR.

EXAMPLE: Lets sub a RB in at WR and a TE....so it shows 3WR 1 TE 1RB - But, its 5 WR!

Another example: guy subs in 2 TEs at WR1 and WR2 - Playcall screen shows 2TE 2 RB (Looks like a jumbo formation eh?) Nope, he's throwing it with 2 TEs at WR....

I dont think this rule is being proposed to stop the guys who use 1 TE at WR3 or dont abuse the playcall screen. Its for the people that do. You may not be the absolute reason that people want these rules..

But, until you get cheesed to death by guys who know how to abuse the playcall, you probably wouldnt know.

I'm sorry...but the whole "Rex Ryan, I doubt he's gonna care..." bs....is irrelevant.

In the NFL, they would never be completely mismatched formation wise. They are given time to audible their coverage/substitute..etc. Madden, guys can quick snap before you even move a player...let alone do a full audible.

Its annoying to play a guy...who will give the playcall screen of 2RB 2WR or 2TE 2RB and its 4 wide shotgun. I'm sorry to say...but its annoying. Teams that put TE's flanked out as WRs....typically do it in the redzone as a mismatch to use the jump ball...etc. Yes, I'm aware certain teams will flank out their TEs...but....You dont see them putting RBs and TEs both...out as WR1 and WR2...while they keep Nate Burleson on the bench...etc. No Team, would ever use their TE over a WR. The 49ers wont ever plug in Vernon Davis at WR1 or WR2 instead of Crabtree or Josh Morgan...hell, even their 3rd WR. The reason Vernon Davis plays inside..is because he's always matched up on a small nickelback or a linebacker. Vernon Davis is not going to get open on a CB1...unless its a pure power matchup in the redzone...etc...where they can use his size. Doing that all game...is not acceptable. In Madden World...putting Davis at WR1...works. Which is absolute trash.

I've never had an issue with a guy who will use one sub...as long as its at the WR3 or WR4 position. But the minute you start subbing multiple players for 1 play....it becomes "CHEESE" to me. NO NFL coach...would ever...in a passing play...sub in a TE instead of a WR. Your team could be killed with injuries...and that coach will play his practice squad WR before he moves Vernon Davis out to run routes against an opposing teams CB1. Just because in Madden World...Vernon Davis's 92 speed beats most CB1's...doesnt mean its legit play. Because it isnt. It's another exploit that people have found to beat opponents.

Even so, there are maybe 3-4 exceptions to using a TE at WR3 even. Vernon Davis is one of them. But, when you are using any speed TE...Ed Dickson, Travis Beckum and putting them at WR...you know what you are doing. You dont put a 82 speed TE out as WR3 or WR4 or even 1/2...they arent better than a 50overall WR. You are doing it too purposely exploit the play calling screen...because it isnt a rule. You just have that "lame excuse" setup...for when your called on it. "Vernon Davis...can...blah blah" - Yeah, well...he's one of the 3-4 exceptions. Putting Ed Dickson, Travis Beckum and other 80 speed TEs at WR...is the worst joke I've ever seen. FA WR's are better at being WRs than them.

PS: this has nothing to do with you Phantomshark, Im not making an example of you. If you only sub Winslow in and nobody else...and you are consistant with your sub....I have no problems with that. IF, hes at WR3/4- It isnt realistic no matter who you have...to have him running routes on stud cornerbacks as your #1 option. But, typically people are not consistant with the subs..and they use it to make their opponent play guessing games against them. Thats CHEESE.

Delmas26 wrote:clearly the majority of you who are defending this...scenario....do this type of "cheese" -

Sorry, phantom, I like you...but I'm not buying your excuse.

You have 3-4 WRS that I'd love to have in MG Surf (Roddy White, Breaston, Burleson, Armanti Edwards) - You haven't a need to use Winslow at WR1 or WR2.

That being said...I have no issues with you using (1) TE at WR. Its the people that use multiple subs...and then come out in Shotgun 5 WR.

EXAMPLE: Lets sub a RB in at WR and a TE....so it shows 3WR 1 TE 1RB - But, its 5 WR!

Another example: guy subs in 2 TEs at WR1 and WR2 - Playcall screen shows 2TE 2 RB (Looks like a jumbo formation eh?) Nope, he's throwing it with 2 TEs at WR....

I dont think this rule is being proposed to stop the guys who use 1 TE at WR3 or dont abuse the playcall screen. Its for the people that do. You may not be the absolute reason that people want these rules..

But, until you get cheesed to death by guys who know how to abuse the playcall, you probably wouldnt know.

I'm sorry...but the whole "Rex Ryan, I doubt he's gonna care..." bs....is irrelevant.

In the NFL, they would never be completely mismatched formation wise. They are given time to audible their coverage/substitute..etc. Madden, guys can quick snap before you even move a player...let alone do a full audible.

Its annoying to play a guy...who will give the playcall screen of 2RB 2WR or 2TE 2RB and its 4 wide shotgun. I'm sorry to say...but its annoying. Teams that put TE's flanked out as WRs....typically do it in the redzone as a mismatch to use the jump ball...etc. Yes, I'm aware certain teams will flank out their TEs...but....You dont see them putting RBs and TEs both...out as WR1 and WR2...while they keep Nate Burleson on the bench...etc. No Team, would ever use their TE over a WR. The 49ers wont ever plug in Vernon Davis at WR1 or WR2 instead of Crabtree or Josh Morgan...hell, even their 3rd WR. The reason Vernon Davis plays inside..is because he's always matched up on a small nickelback or a linebacker. Vernon Davis is not going to get open on a CB1...unless its a pure power matchup in the redzone...etc...where they can use his size. Doing that all game...is not acceptable. In Madden World...putting Davis at WR1...works. Which is absolute trash.

I've never had an issue with a guy who will use one sub...as long as its at the WR3 or WR4 position. But the minute you start subbing multiple players for 1 play....it becomes "CHEESE" to me. NO NFL coach...would ever...in a passing play...sub in a TE instead of a WR. Your team could be killed with injuries...and that coach will play his practice squad WR before he moves Vernon Davis out to run routes against an opposing teams CB1. Just because in Madden World...Vernon Davis's 92 speed beats most CB1's...doesnt mean its legit play. Because it isnt. It's another exploit that people have found to beat opponents.

Even so, there are maybe 3-4 exceptions to using a TE at WR3 even. Vernon Davis is one of them. But, when you are using any speed TE...Ed Dickson, Travis Beckum and putting them at WR...you know what you are doing. You dont put a 82 speed TE out as WR3 or WR4 or even 1/2...they arent better than a 50overall WR. You are doing it too purposely exploit the play calling screen...because it isnt a rule. You just have that "lame excuse" setup...for when your called on it. "Vernon Davis...can...blah blah" - Yeah, well...he's one of the 3-4 exceptions. Putting Ed Dickson, Travis Beckum and other 80 speed TEs at WR...is the worst joke I've ever seen. FA WR's are better at being WRs than them.

PS: this has nothing to do with you Phantomshark, Im not making an example of you. If you only sub Winslow in and nobody else...and you are consistant with your sub....I have no problems with that. IF, hes at WR3/4- It isnt realistic no matter who you have...to have him running routes on stud cornerbacks as your #1 option. But, typically people are not consistant with the subs..and they use it to make their opponent play guessing games against them. Thats CHEESE.

+1

That's exactly the point. Even in Delmas' example of subbing a RB and TE in on 5 wide, so it reads 3WR 1 TE 1RB is within the realm of acceptability, because then the defense at least has an idea to bring some more DBs onto the field. He's also right about teams not splitting out TEs in WR1/2 spots. When have you ever seen any DB besides a nickel back or safety matched up on a TE? But you can't make those switches in madden if someone puts them at WR1/2. I also agree that just because Vernon Davis works at WR1/2 in Madden because it's a video game doesn't mean it should be used here (the goal is to stick closely to what happens in the NFL). Again, even with injuries, practice squad guys are called up to play WR instead of moving TEs there.

Last night after I spoke with greener, i misinterpreted what he said to me, and took it as he just thought I should make the changes then. But I was wrong. The GC is currently under vote on the new rules. I did it via private messaging, to avoid any non-GC comments muddling the voting process. However, after the votes are in, I'll post the results and who voted for what so everyone knows the results are legitimate. People given votes were Jmo, CP, FF, Vista, Ez, Surf, Greener, Myself, Kight.

I'll use my Lions....as a good example.....

Their WR's blow! with the exception of CJ81 (Burleson is alright) - But...all season they were trying to find a a WR3 worth a crud...they must have used 2-4 guys...Derrick Williams, Bryant Johnson...etc. Burleson was injured during the early/middle of the season...which made it worse. They had normal WR3's and WR4's trying to play WR2. They couldnt ever get open.

Never....did they decide to use Tony Scheffler and Brandon Pettigrew (Both 80speed Madden TE's) and sub them in at WR2...because they are better than ANY JOE-SCHMO WIDE RECEIVER THEY COULD FIND. In Madden, Scheffler and Pettigrew are both more likely to get open than the rest of the Lions bums....

But, in real life...they kept trying practice squad WRs and little used WRs in those spots....

Why? Because Tony Scheffler and Pettigrew are not going to get open on a starting cornerback in the NFL. Yes, u may be able to throw the jump-ball...or basically box-out the Cornerback inside the redzone/goaline...but on an everydown occasion....its hella-unrealistic.

Certain PB's like the Colts will have alot of plays with Dallas Clark...flanked out. But, he is always in the slot position...he's never flanked all the way outside as a WR1...etc.

Lets be real here. I'm starting to think alot of you play Madden...and dont watch/play football. If you watched football...EVER...you would know...you dont see Winslow/Davis/Clark...etc...flanked out all the way wide. UNLESS, its a power formation and they motion him all the way out...on an open side...to create a mismatch.

We are talking about rare circumstances....not every-down situations.

I never do this with my depth charts. never.

But as long as the depth chart doesn't dictate the call screen I don't have an issue with it. I would understand if you put your WR in the TE depth chart and the screen would say that the WR was a TE - that would be cheap. Or if you put TE in your WR and the screen read them as WR instead of TE - you could come out in BIG sets but the screen would say it was a 3WR set. That would be cheating.

But since the screen reads the personnel correctly I do not have an issue with it. If you are putting Winslow as the number 3 WR so he is coming out in the slot on two TE sets - I see no problem with that. If I were playing Phantom I would know he uses two TE sets with Winslow going down field, out of the slot - and I would match up appropriately. If you don't have a LB crew that can cover his two TE sets then call a nickel etc.

That's just my opinion.....

C'mon Delmas,

You can't say that it NEVER happens EVER, and then turn around and say well, sometimes it does... on rare occasions.

I have seen Dallas Clark lined up wide. I have seen Martellus Bennet wide. I have seen Gates wide. And not always in power formations.

I agree that it doesn't happen often, but it DOES happen.

As far as what your Lions did this year...do you really want us to base our SIM decisions based on what the Lions do? That is hardly the organization to copy if you want to make good football choices. This is Madden 11, not Millen '11. lol

Delmas26 wrote:I'll use my Lions....as a good example.....

Their WR's blow! with the exception of CJ81 (Burleson is alright) - But...all season they were trying to find a a WR3 worth a crud...they must have used 2-4 guys...Derrick Williams, Bryant Johnson...etc. Burleson was injured during the early/middle of the season...which made it worse. They had normal WR3's and WR4's trying to play WR2. They couldnt ever get open.

Never....did they decide to use Tony Scheffler and Brandon Pettigrew (Both 80speed Madden TE's) and sub them in at WR2...because they are better than ANY JOE-SCHMO WIDE RECEIVER THEY COULD FIND. In Madden, Scheffler and Pettigrew are both more likely to get open than the rest of the Lions bums....

But, in real life...they kept trying practice squad WRs and little used WRs in those spots....

Why? Because Tony Scheffler and Pettigrew are not going to get open on a starting cornerback in the NFL. Yes, u may be able to throw the jump-ball...or basically box-out the Cornerback inside the redzone/goaline...but on an everydown occasion....its hella-unrealistic.

Certain PB's like the Colts will have alot of plays with Dallas Clark...flanked out. But, he is always in the slot position...he's never flanked all the way outside as a WR1...etc.

Lets be real here. I'm starting to think alot of you play Madden...and dont watch/play football. If you watched football...EVER...you would know...you dont see Winslow/Davis/Clark...etc...flanked out all the way wide. UNLESS, its a power formation and they motion him all the way out...on an open side...to create a mismatch.

We are talking about rare circumstances....not every-down situations.

Well...in all fairness, there are situations where you will see Kellen Winslow out wide with the #2 guy in the slot...but it's a rare circumstance, and even then, the #2 CB is still sticking the number #2 receiver, he doesn't go cover Kellen like it would happen in madden. My problem is, guys know what it does to the play call screen, now it's apparent that they know there are plenty of playbooks and formations that use 2TEs/HB or TE in the slot, they can use motion to get the same results, AND know that it doesn't happen like the depth chart does it in real life but they're STILL arguing for it. Like...really?

mblammers wrote:C'mon Delmas,

You can't say that it NEVER happens EVER, and then turn around and say well, sometimes it does... on rare occasions.

I have seen Dallas Clark lined up wide. I have seen Martellus Bennet wide. I have seen Gates wide. And not always in power formations.

I agree that it doesn't happen often, but it DOES happen.

As far as what your Lions did this year...do you really want us to base our SIM decisions based on what the Lions do? That is hardly the organization to copy if you want to make good football choices. This is Madden 11, not Millen '11. lol

Not everything that happens in the NFL translates well into Madden. How would you like it if after every halftime your opponent onside kicked? Well the Saints did it in the Superbowl. How would you like it if every 4th down your opponent went for it? Well it's happened in the NFL before. Using the excuse of something that happens on a marginal basis in the NFL is unfair. Madden barely captures the regularities of the NFL accurately, and definitely doesn't capture the rare occurrences well.

For the record, I had no idea that it read that on the play call screen, and I never line up my TE wide, and Almost never put him in the slot, although Greg Olson will probably get some reps there next year.
I am arguing against the proposed rule only cause I don't think that it is unfair as long as you know which players are on the field.
We're allowed to argue a point without being labeled cheesers. Hell, I'm not even good enough to cheese, lol.

and @Cheddah,

I agree that using an exception to allow unsim play is BS, but here I don't think it is that rare in real life to disallow it. The onside kick analogy you use to make your point is definitely not a fair comparison to what this thread is about.