Rule Changes and Additions have been made!!

again, this isnt a flame on phantom. He isnt the reason this has become an issue.

If he uses Winslow at WR3...I dont agree with it...but I wouldnt be arguing against him. Maybe his playbook doesnt have his TE split in the slot. Maybe he should try a new one. But, the minute he starts putting Winslow at WR1 over any WR....especially Nate Burleson...I do have a problem with that. Or, the minute guys start subbing 2 tight ends to replace wide receivers...in an i-formation...and then subs a LT and RT in at TE's for the actual TE position....I have problems.

Player-1 subbed in 2 TES....at WR. Called a Power-I-Formation...where the wide-receivers are extremely close to the line of scrimmage.. Subbed in a LT at the Left tight end...and a RT at the right tight-end spot...so essentially...he had 2 TEs.....6 Lineman and a FB....blocking for his power runs or toss runs. Thats Fun to play against.

Or

Player-2 subs in Darren McFadden at WR2....and then puts Aaron Brown (Another abused player for this stuff....) at WR4...and calls a 4 wide shotgun play. But, Madden tells his opponent its 2WR/2RB - How many times....are people going to call Nickel and Dime...or Dollar...against 2WR/2RB? let me ask you that? because I never am. What happens next? I'm scrambling to make an audible...or move a player...and I end up getting burned by 2 95speed Rbs doing an inside post....because the guy secretly called shotgun 4 wide...and made some subs...taking out WRs...who run routes 90X better than the RB. FUN!

Delmas26 wrote:again, this isnt a flame on phantom. He isnt the reason this has become an issue.

If he uses Winslow at WR3...I dont agree with it...but I wouldnt be arguing against him. Maybe his playbook doesnt have his TE split in the slot. Maybe he should try a new one. But, the minute he starts putting Winslow at WR1 over any WR....especially Nate Burleson...I do have a problem with that. Or, the minute guys start subbing 2 tight ends to replace wide receivers...in an i-formation...and then subs a LT and RT in at TE's for the actual TE position....I have problems.

Player-1 subbed in 2 TES....at WR. Called a Power-I-Formation...where the wide-receivers are extremely close to the line of scrimmage.. Subbed in a LT at the Left tight end...and a RT at the right tight-end spot...so essentially...he had 2 TEs.....6 Lineman and a FB....blocking for his power runs or toss runs. Thats Fun to play against.

Or

Player-2 subs in Darren McFadden at WR2....and then puts Aaron Brown (Another abused player for this stuff....) at WR4...and calls a 4 wide shotgun play. But, Madden tells his opponent its 2WR/2RB - How many times....are people going to call Nickel and Dime...or Dollar...against 2WR/2RB? let me ask you that? because I never am. What happens next? I'm scrambling to make an audible...or move a player...and I end up getting burned by 2 95speed Rbs doing an inside post....because the guy secretly called shotgun 4 wide...and made some subs...taking out WRs...who run routes 90X better than the RB. FUN!

Ok. You are right. Those are some BS moves. I think I just changed my mind. I still think that the "this is not Millen '11." was a pretty good line though.

mblammers wrote:For the record, I had no idea that it read that on the play call screen, and I never line up my TE wide, and Almost never put him in the slot, although Greg Olson will probably get some reps there next year.
I am arguing against the proposed rule only cause I don't think that it is unfair as long as you know which players are on the field.
We're allowed to argue a point without being labeled cheesers. Hell, I'm not even good enough to cheese, lol.

Blammers, let me ask you this....What defense are you calling....if the play-call screen says 3 TE(s) 1 RB....*I agree its fishy and you probably think something is up...to begin with...but thats not the point*

I doubt you are going to call Dime....etc against that package.

So, when the guy comes out 4 WR with Vernon Davis/Travis Beckum/Ed Dickson and Darren McFadden...then what?

exactly.

I guess if no rule is going to be made....I'll start drafting 4 83+ speed TEs...and abuse the !@#$ out of this...because to me...its clear cheese and it creates an unfair advantage.

I only wonder how good I could actually throw the ball...if I had the defense fooled on everyplay...before the snap. I throw pretty solid (in my opinion) without doing any unfair subs. I guess I'll shoot for 5k+ yards and 60tds with fast TEs...acting as WRs...to create unfair advantages because of a game flaw.

This reminds me of Madden 06..07 when people would draft fast LBs...and move them to DE....where they instantly became a 99 or close....and then traded them for the same kind of rated players....(Ex. moved some bum like Vernon Gholston to DE, where he would become a 99...then traded him straight up to a cpu team for Peyton Manning) - The game didnt recognize it then...just like the game doesnt recognize it now.

If you are subbing a TE in at WR....they need to fix the playcall screen...to show it as a WR...regardless of his actual position. It would stop all of this nonsense. But, if you draft all speed RBs and TEs...you can use this for a serious unfair advantage...if you know how too.

Delmas26 wrote:

mblammers wrote:For the record, I had no idea that it read that on the play call screen, and I never line up my TE wide, and Almost never put him in the slot, although Greg Olson will probably get some reps there next year.
I am arguing against the proposed rule only cause I don't think that it is unfair as long as you know which players are on the field.
We're allowed to argue a point without being labeled cheesers. Hell, I'm not even good enough to cheese, lol.

Blammers, let me ask you this....What defense are you calling....if the play-call screen says 3 TE(s) 1 RB....*I agree its fishy and you probably think something is up...to begin with...but thats not the point*

I doubt you are going to call Dime....etc against that package.

So, when the guy comes out 4 WR with Vernon Davis/Travis Beckum/Ed Dickson and Darren McFadden...then what?

exactly.

I guess if no rule is going to be made....I'll start drafting 4 83+ speed TEs...and abuse the !@#$ out of this...because to me...its clear cheese and it creates an unfair advantage.

I only wonder how good I could actually throw the ball...if I had the defense fooled on everyplay...before the snap. I throw pretty solid (in my opinion) without doing any unfair subs. I guess I'll shoot for 5k+ yards and 60tds with fast TEs...acting as WRs...to create unfair advantages because of a game flaw.

This reminds me of Madden 06..07 when people would draft fast LBs...and move them to DE....where they instantly became a 99 or close....and then traded them for the same kind of rated players....(Ex. moved some bum like Vernon Gholston to DE, where he would become a 99...then traded him straight up to a cpu team for Peyton Manning) - The game didnt recognize it then...just like the game doesnt recognize it now.

If you are subbing a TE in at WR....they need to fix the playcall screen...to show it as a WR...regardless of his actual position. It would stop all of this nonsense. But, if you draft all speed RBs and TEs...you can use this for a serious unfair advantage...if you know how too.

Exactly, on 1st and 2nd down you might be able to fight it, like I did with Ez, when it's 3rd and short and you have no idea what's coming, it's a little more ridiculous, especially in a close game.


That Millen 11 line was pretty good though

mblammers wrote:C'mon Delmas,

You can't say that it NEVER happens EVER, and then turn around and say well, sometimes it does... on rare occasions.

I have seen Dallas Clark lined up wide. I have seen Martellus Bennet wide. I have seen Gates wide. And not always in power formations.

I agree that it doesn't happen often, but it DOES happen.

As far as what your Lions did this year...do you really want us to base our SIM decisions based on what the Lions do? That is hardly the organization to copy if you want to make good football choices. This is Madden 11, not Millen '11. lol

It was an example...you tart. I wasnt justifying the Lions as a basis for SIM RULES....and Yes, I did say TE's do split out wide. In the slot. But you wont find them at a WR1 position or WR2 position...

I'm aware TEs line up in the slot...or are motioned out...in bunch packages...etc. The people that abuse this play-calling...dont use the TE(s) RB(s) that way.

Delmas26 wrote:again, this isnt a flame on phantom. He isnt the reason this has become an issue.

If he uses Winslow at WR3...I dont agree with it...but I wouldnt be arguing against him. Maybe his playbook doesnt have his TE split in the slot. Maybe he should try a new one. But, the minute he starts putting Winslow at WR1 over any WR....especially Nate Burleson...I do have a problem with that. Or, the minute guys start subbing 2 tight ends to replace wide receivers...in an i-formation...and then subs a LT and RT in at TE's for the actual TE position....I have problems.

Player-1 subbed in 2 TES....at WR. Called a Power-I-Formation...where the wide-receivers are extremely close to the line of scrimmage.. Subbed in a LT at the Left tight end...and a RT at the right tight-end spot...so essentially...he had 2 TEs.....6 Lineman and a FB....blocking for his power runs or toss runs. Thats Fun to play against.

Or

Player-2 subs in Darren McFadden at WR2....and then puts Aaron Brown (Another abused player for this stuff....) at WR4...and calls a 4 wide shotgun play. But, Madden tells his opponent its 2WR/2RB - How many times....are people going to call Nickel and Dime...or Dollar...against 2WR/2RB? let me ask you that? because I never am. What happens next? I'm scrambling to make an audible...or move a player...and I end up getting burned by 2 95speed Rbs doing an inside post....because the guy secretly called shotgun 4 wide...and made some subs...taking out WRs...who run routes 90X better than the RB. FUN!

For the record - that type of shit has no place in MG. Extreme abuse.

I agree with Cheddah and Delmas on outlawing all of these possible abuses.

To me - the only acceptable circumstance would be using a TE as WR3 - that is reasonable to me. Especially with the way the Tight Ends are being used in NFL now-a-days. Many of them are being used in the slot as 3WR type guys.

But putting them as WR1 or WR2 so you can have a LB covering your real WR1 is horseshit. Or putting two RB's in the WR spots and running 4WR sets - that's crap.

Use motion, or legit pre-set formations because that is the only way Madden matches up correctly and realistically.

One exception is using a TE in the slot as a WR3 - unless someone can show me that it is abuse also - I always listen to reason.....

i HAVE to use a TE @ wr 4 in my DW league simply because the next receiver i have is slower with worse hands and route running, but it will at least say 3 wr 1 TE.

falconfansince81 wrote:i HAVE to use a TE @ wr 4 in my DW league simply because the next receiver i have is slower with worse hands and route running, but it will at least say 3 wr 1 TE.

Yeah - not that I have a vote. But if i did - I would vote for this rule but have an addendum stating that ONE TE at WR3 or lower is allowed. Not two - you can't put TWO TE in and run a spread - that's gay. But ONE in the WR3 or lower seems cool to me.

Other than that - cut the crap with the depth charts.

falconfansince81 wrote:i HAVE to use a TE @ wr 4 in my DW league simply because the next receiver i have is slower with worse hands and route running, but it will at least say 3 wr 1 TE.

That's something that can be dealt with at least. because seeing 3WR you know it's an open set, and you'd be advised to bring more DBs. But when people do things to make it look like 2WR or less, so they can suprise you with a 4 wide or 5 wide set, is ridiculous...especially in short yardage situations.

yeah, cause i could put him at the 3rd slot since hes better than ogletree...but i won't cause thats just lame. so maybe just have a simple rule that you can't sub a TE or RB in your depth chart higher than the 4th slot? this way at least like you guys said, they know 3 wr will probably warrant a passing defense and people can be better prepared to see a spread offense.

I could deal with only allowing WRs at 1 and 2. I could even deal with #3 having to be a TE or a WR and not allowing HBs til #4. But not allowing anything but WRs all the way down to 5 is unrealistic and spiteful. Until the Jets got Braylon last year, Keller was absolutely their #3 WR. Clark is forever lining up at #3 or #4. Plenty of Saints plays have Bush lining up in the slot.

And your suggestion to just use plays that line up my TE in the slot, Winslow is my #2 TE. Those plays line Clark up out there. It's not like Winslow is a speed demon, he's an 84, and he's my #4 WR. Last year he was my #2 because I didn't have another real choice, but if I'd been told he had to be #3 I could have lived with it. With your proposal he would have to be #5, and the #5 receiver is almost always running speed routes, plus he'd only be in for 2-3 plays the whole game.

So a compromise rule proposal:

Only WRs allowed at the #1 and #2 spots. TE or WR at the #3 spot. Anyone allowed #4 and down. If a HB or TE is used in the WR depth chart, they may not be a starter at another position.

** Not more than 1 TE or HB can be listed in the WR depth chart.

So you can only have 1 NON-WR listed on the Depth Chart and it has to be below the #2 spot.

Fr8trainShane wrote:** Not more than 1 TE or HB can be listed in the WR depth chart.

So you can only have 1 NON-WR listed on the Depth Chart and it has to be below the #2 spot.

Not really viable, only because players don't always carry 5 WR so #6 often has to be some scrub RB or TE. But how about only 1 of the top 4 can be a non-WR, either #3 or #4. So you won't get a 2WR message on 4 or 5 WR sets.

phantomshark wrote:

Fr8trainShane wrote:** Not more than 1 TE or HB can be listed in the WR depth chart.

So you can only have 1 NON-WR listed on the Depth Chart and it has to be below the #2 spot.

Not really viable, only because players don't always carry 5 WR so #6 often has to be some scrub RB or TE. But how about only 1 of the top 4 can be a non-WR, either #3 or #4. So you won't get a 2WR message on 4 or 5 WR sets.

I believe every team in the NFL carries 5 Active WRs on their roster... Can anyone think of an exception?

@Phantom: Your suggestion would still allow people to come out 4 wide and have it show as 2WR 1TE 2RB if they wanted to, as well as a host of other different things.

@Shane: Same problem arises as above.

I think the compromise brought up by Falcon that seems fair enough is to allow a TE in the 4 spot or below. At least that way you would at least see 3WR for any shotgun or 5wide sets and have the information necessary to know there should be more DBs on the field. The GC is currently voting though, I'm just waiting on responses from, 2 members before I'll announce the verdicts as well as who voted for what.

Fr8trainShane wrote:

phantomshark wrote:

Fr8trainShane wrote:** Not more than 1 TE or HB can be listed in the WR depth chart.

So you can only have 1 NON-WR listed on the Depth Chart and it has to be below the #2 spot.

Not really viable, only because players don't always carry 5 WR so #6 often has to be some scrub RB or TE. But how about only 1 of the top 4 can be a non-WR, either #3 or #4. So you won't get a 2WR message on 4 or 5 WR sets.

I believe every team in the NFL carries 5 Active WRs on their roster... Can anyone think of an exception?

In extreme situations I've heard of teams knocking it to 4, like if they're very injury riddled and need an extra player at another position. (Kinda like the Jets did these playoffs...they brought less players at another position...I think it was O-Line...so they could add another DB since they were going so DB heavy against the Colts and Pats, and then they reverted back when they met the Steelers

No one has answered my original question. If a head coach sees 2 TEs come onto the field, how can he think he has the 'right' to know whether 1 of the TEs is lining up in the slot and it's a shotgun, or if it's a singleback Ace formation? How is it sim for him to know this? I'm not making this argument as someone who has ever been accused of abusing anything, just because I think it's wrong and almost kinda 'Big Brother'ish to try and implement something like this without even trying to find a more fair solution.

phantomshark wrote:No one has answered my original question. If a head coach sees 2 TEs come onto the field, how can he think he has the 'right' to know whether 1 of the TEs is lining up in the slot and it's a shotgun, or if it's a singleback Ace formation? How is it sim for him to know this?

They dont know, however, they have time roughly 10 seconds or more to adjust there defense and make quick subs.....we don't have that allotted time in madden...

jmojsoski wrote:

phantomshark wrote:No one has answered my original question. If a head coach sees 2 TEs come onto the field, how can he think he has the 'right' to know whether 1 of the TEs is lining up in the slot and it's a shotgun, or if it's a singleback Ace formation? How is it sim for him to know this?

They dont know, however, they have time roughly 10 seconds or more to adjust there defense and make quick subs.....we don't have that allotted time in madden...

There's no way they have a chance to make a sub once the other team actually lines up, so they are basically stuck with audibling, just like us. But they've already matched personnel, that TE is not getting any faster just because he lines up in the slot.

phantomshark wrote:No one has answered my original question. If a head coach sees 2 TEs come onto the field, how can he think he has the 'right' to know whether 1 of the TEs is lining up in the slot and it's a shotgun, or if it's a singleback Ace formation? How is it sim for him to know this? I'm not making this argument as someone who has ever been accused of abusing anything, just because I think it's wrong and almost kinda 'Big Brother'ish to try and implement something like this without even trying to find a more fair solution.

They don't. But they have time to get the right personnel in there. We don't. If they also do that and then come out 5 wide, they have the personnel to cover them. Especially if they see the TEs coming out are receiving TEs and not blocking TEs. Same with RBs. If you see Reggie Bush is coming onto the field, coaches plan for the possibility that he could be split out. We don't get that information. Making adjustments is not simply confined to the preset audibles either. For the more technical guys like myself and as mentioned above FF, there's a lot of hot routing involved on D when we see 2RB 2TE 2RB and pcik 4-6 only to see a 5 wide set come onto the field. A mistake like that doesn't happen in the NFL, ever. You rarely...and I mean RARELY see a D come out in a 4-6 and be like "Oh shit, everyone is lined up 5 wide", and when they do, players automatically know their responsibilities and coverage assignments...they're coach isn't like "Hey Woodson, you play a flat zone. Nick I want you to man up Keller lined up as the WR1. Oh, Tramon, you play a buzz zone that won't work anyway. Sam you play a flatzone on the otherside. Barnett, hook zone...." Which is what we have to do...all in the 3 seconds before the snap.

look bro...if you need this trickery to win fine...obviously you feel strongly about it, im not going to go back and forth, however if the rule is passed, you would have to adjust just like your opponents have had to adjust to your trickery..

phantomshark wrote:

jmojsoski wrote:

phantomshark wrote:No one has answered my original question. If a head coach sees 2 TEs come onto the field, how can he think he has the 'right' to know whether 1 of the TEs is lining up in the slot and it's a shotgun, or if it's a singleback Ace formation? How is it sim for him to know this?

They dont know, however, they have time roughly 10 seconds or more to adjust there defense and make quick subs.....we don't have that allotted time in madden...

There's no way they have a chance to make a sub once the other team actually lines up, so they are basically stuck with audibling, just like us. But they've already matched personnel, that TE is not getting any faster just because he lines up in the slot.

They can't make subs in those 10 seconds...they make the subs when they see who's coming in...something we can't. In the NFL it's not as simple as putting a fast LB against a fast LB. They have a specific group of guys that can cover a specific player. You're gonna have situationals, where if you see 3WR coming in off the sideline, down and distance, plus a receiving TE like Keller, then you're gonna make subs that match it. We can't make those subs. Then, like i said above, depending on what they actually come out in, you'll get an audible in if necessary, but guys automatically know their assignments. If you like to run a base D from an audible, especially with the wrong personnel in there, you're going to get smoked left and right. Especially by a guy who had been planning to fool you from the start. If I did something as lame as that, I'd obviously know at best you're going to get an audible in, what are your choices? Cover 2, Cover 3, Man, Blitz. Hmm, I know exactly what all of those look like, and on the snap it'll take a fraction of a second to know which one you picked (especially if you picked a cover 2 or cover 3), and then another fraction of a second to know where there will most likely be an opening against that base D.

phantomshark wrote:

jmojsoski wrote:

phantomshark wrote:No one has answered my original question. If a head coach sees 2 TEs come onto the field, how can he think he has the 'right' to know whether 1 of the TEs is lining up in the slot and it's a shotgun, or if it's a singleback Ace formation? How is it sim for him to know this?

They dont know, however, they have time roughly 10 seconds or more to adjust there defense and make quick subs.....we don't have that allotted time in madden...

There's no way they have a chance to make a sub once the other team actually lines up, so they are basically stuck with audibling, just like us. But they've already matched personnel, that TE is not getting any faster just because he lines up in the slot.

As long as TEs are not spread out wide cause they are the number 1 and 2 on the dc then phantom has a point. If people come out with TEs wide with the two CBs on them - and WR in the slots with the LBs on them - then thats crap.

But if he comes out with two TEs in the slots - then it's just like a single back big set except they lineup off the line a bit but LBs are still on them - and CBs are still on the WR.......

Here's the problem with this rule, and we should just go ahead and address it now before this goes any further.

Its going to be hell to police. You'd either have to record all of the games, or hope the highlight saves, and includes them actually lining up pre-snap (and then you still wouldn't see the package that showed on screen).

Its un-policeable.

never seen somebody fight this sooo hard.....

is it clear that some MG players use this as 90% of their strategy?

NO TEAM DOES THIS...ALL TEAMS have at least 5 WRs...and every last one of them...would run a route as WR1 or WR2 before a STUD TIGHT END...

PERIOD, POINT, BLANK.

Go Ask Mike Singletary, before he got fired...Ted Ginn and the rest of the bum receivers on the 49ers would be running routes if Crabtree/Morgan/etc got injured...long before they would take Vernon Davis away from where he plays...to have a CB1 line up on him. This is just plain retarded.

Vernon Davis is not Vernon Davis....matched up on Revis everydown...but, he is...when matched on a LB everytime. But, in Madden...Vernon Davis can probably beat Revis a fair amount of times...on pure Madden AI and Speed.