Ok There Has Got To Be Something Done About This 4 Down STuff....

I don't think bjcole's decision was that egregious. His point about the difference b/t 17 and 20 points is solid (although with that much time left, probably smarter to take all the points you can get). Seems to me to be just a very aggressive call. I don't think I would do it, but its not ridiculously unsim.

GREENERRRR wrote:both situations by ez and bj are close to be 100% FG siutuations in theh NFL as its gets...

mblammers said that nothing is ever 100% - and from my undergad study in Economics, econometrics and statitics i agree with that statement - BUT THOSE 2 SITUATIONS ARE AS CLOSE TO 100% AS YOU EVER GONNA GET (if u polled NFL coaches and asked them if the y would go for it or kick a FG)

Just curious, what is econometrics?

edit: nvm. I looked it up on wikipedia. gave me a headache.

mblammers wrote:I don't think bjcole's decision was that egregious. His point about the difference b/t 17 and 20 points is solid (although with that much time left, probably smarter to take all the points you can get). Seems to me to be just a very aggressive call. I don't think I would do it, but its not ridiculously unsim.

I actually disagree... there is a huge difference between 17 and 20 points,and here is how.

Lets assume your opponents manages to score 3 unanswered TD's.... so you are either 17-21, or 20-21.

In one scenario, the FG wins the game (23-21), in the other, you lose. Kicking the FG makes all the sense in the world. With your opponent only having 3 TOs and the two minute warning, you would effectively run down 6 minutes of the play clock minimum...assuming you didn't actually get a single first down, and it doesn't take into account the 3-4 seconds that would be run down by the actual play....it also doesn't take into account the time it would take for your opponent to score those 3 scores.... which with an accel clock, is at a minimum of 2-3 additional minutes.

The clock wouldn't be a factor... if you kick the FG.

BJ's situation was 4th and inches. 4th and inches on your opponents side of the field is not a sure fire FG/punt in the NFL. 4th and a full yard is a different story. But 4th and inches - you will see NFL coaches going for it. I don't think BJ's was that bad based on this.

@Shane, I agree that the smartest play is probably taking the points. But that doesn't mean that bjcole's point about 20 vs 17 is completely without merit.

BTW, I don't follow how you would "effectively run down 6 minutes of the playclock minimum". Not saying I disagree, I just might be stupid. Are you saying that throughout the rest of your possessions (assuming your opp doesn't recover an onside kick or cause a fumble) you would burn that much time?

I have had people score on me blazingly fast in this game - JMO's no huddle offense scares the shit out of me, for example. So I'm not sure that you can count on running out the clock with an entire quarter and a half left in the game and a 20 point lead.

Like I said, I think I would take the 3 points. I would also be really frustrated if I was phntm in this case. It sucks stopping someone and expecting one thing only to see them line up for a play. All I'm saying is I don't consider it outside of what I consider SIM football. Agressive? yes. Unsound strategy? probably. UN SIM? not in my book.

I have apologized to BJ and he has apologized to me. I was having a really bad night last night, I was in a foul mood and exhausted, and we started this game 45 minutes late, so I really just wanted to be in bed. Madden was truly pissing me off, and this move which in my bad mood was a direct slap in the face, just sent me over the edge. Now after a good nights sleep, it does not look personal. I still think it's bad strategy, but certainly not directed at me. Again, the 12 hour rule would have helped me avoid all this, lol.

mblammers wrote:@Shane, I agree that the smartest play is probably taking the points. But that doesn't mean that bjcole's point about 20 vs 17 is completely without merit.

BTW, I don't follow how you would "effectively run down 6 minutes of the playclock minimum". Not saying I disagree, I just might be stupid. Are you saying that throughout the rest of your possessions (assuming your opp doesn't recover an onside kick or cause a fumble) you would burn that much time?

I have had people score on me blazingly fast in this game - JMO's no huddle offense scares the shit out of me, for example. So I'm not sure that you can count on running out the clock with an entire quarter and a half left in the game and a 20 point lead.

Like I said, I think I would take the 3 points. I would also be really frustrated if I was phntm in this case. It sucks stopping someone and expecting one thing only to see them line up for a play. All I'm saying is I don't consider it outside of what I consider SIM football. Agressive? yes. Unsound strategy? probably. UN SIM? not in my book.

Playclock = 40 seconds
3 downs a possession (1st into 2nd, 2nd into 3rd, 3rd into 4th) = 120 seconds (2 minutes)
If you have a 3 score lead, you will have 3 possessions. 2 minutes x 3 = 6 minutes

Assuming you run the ball on every play. And thats not including the time your opponent loses due to the accel clock, unless he scores a TD in 1 play, on each possession, which they hadn't done for 3 quarters, so is very unlikely.

Guys i already apologized to Phantom. I knew when i went for it that some may or may not go for it there.... There was 3 mins left in the 3rd when i did this.... I do not feel like i was being unsim or disrespectful to my opponent nor do i feel like it is 100% auto FG time.... If the score was tied or i was down 3, then yes it probably was auto fg time for me.... But since everyone is bringing up lets play sim? What is sim? How can Dlew be 5th in the league in rushing with Vick but be winless and this considered sim? How can Greenerrr average 65.6 yard per game passing in DW league but this is considered sim? Which team in NFL history has done this... 100% of teams do not play this way in the NFL...How can running no huddle every other series to run the same hb off tackle or hb dive against a 46, 34, 43 D be sim? What NFL team does this.... How can Mayhem have 2000 yards receiving with Michael Lincoln thru 8 or 9 games in Kight league but next closest has 1000 be sim? How can running crossing routes or sitting in 2 man under with 95 speed dbs entire game be considered sim?

This is a video game and it has it flaws... I was not trying to run up the score, nor did i not play sim nor did i go against 100% of the NFL coaches when doing this... Here is a link the Chiefs going for it on 4th and inches from Cleveland 36 up by 2 points this year... Was this unsim? it would of made it a 5 point game.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/gameflash/2010/09/19/3954_recap.html

So do not tell me it was 100% of the NFL coaches.

bjcole26 wrote:Guys i already apologized to Phantom. I knew when i went for it that some may or may not go for it there.... There was 3 mins left in the 3rd when i did this.... I do not feel like i was being unsim or disrespectful to my opponent nor do i feel like it is 100% auto FG time.... If the score was tied or i was down 3, then yes it probably was auto fg time for me.... But since everyone is bringing up lets play sim? What is sim? How can Dlew be 5th in the league in rushing with Vick but be winless and this considered sim? How can Greenerrr average 65.6 yard per game passing in DW league but this is considered sim? Which team in NFL history has done this... 100% of teams do not play this way in the NFL...How can running no huddle every other series to run the same hb off tackle or hb dive against a 46, 34, 43 D be sim? What NFL team does this.... How can Mayhem have 2000 yards receiving with Michael Lincoln thru 8 or 9 games in Kight league but next closest has 1000 be sim? How can running crossing routes or sitting in 2 man under with 95 speed dbs entire game be considered sim?

This is a video game and it has it flaws... I was not trying to run up the score, nor did i not play sim nor did i go against 100% of the NFL coaches when doing this... Here is a link the Chiefs going for it on 4th and inches from Cleveland 36 up by 2 points this year... Was this unsim? it would of made it a 5 point game.

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/football/nfl/gameflash/2010/09/19/3954_recap.html

So do not tell me it was 100% of the NFL coaches.

greener still plays 1930's football, he would be considered an air threat putting up a staggering 5-6 50 yard passing attack with a mere 46 rushing attempts all game. guess we never specified an era of football to be compared sim to lol...

ppl will find grey areas in rules and do that and the only excuse they have is it isnt against the rules. like i keep saying, being sim isnt jus following rules. its about having integrity for the game. going for it right there is a lack of integrity IMO. kick your fg and score the next time u have the ball.

So true FF... Maybe that is where i screwed up when thinking of sim and the 4 and 5 attempt games Greenerrr has had lately... His last game against CP he was 2-4 passing for 1 yard for game.... Really 1 yard and 4 attempts for the ENTIRE game... Is this really sim football or is he just trying to get J.Stewart the rushing title and pro bowl votes?

Finally, Shane, i would be considered an asshole and cheeser if i really let the play clock run down to 1 sec every play in the 3rd qtr of a 20 point game.

bjcole26 wrote:So true FF... Maybe that is where i screwed up when thinking of sim and the 4 and 5 attempt games Greenerrr has had lately... His last game against CP he was 2-4 passing for 1 yard for game.... Really 1 yard and 4 attempts for the ENTIRE game... Is this really sim football or is he just trying to get J.Stewart the rushing title and pro bowl votes?

Finally, Shane, i would be considered an asshole and cheeser if i really let the play clock run down to 1 sec every play in the 3rd qtr of a 20 point game.

My last to games were heavy run games for simple reasons...

- vs Cheddah - i had no need to pass i got a couple defensive score (which were 100% madden BS - tipped passes that were picked and balls that `sailed` over the intended wr) and this got me a lead early - it made no sense to air out the ball and stop the clock with incomplete passes... especially when i was getting consistant gains on the ground... <

vs CP - i was resigned to the loss in the 2nd quarter - i new i had no chance to beat his 99 - 98 -97 speed WR, who are all 6 fot 4 plus with high CIT traffic ratings - i wasnt going to win that game - it was clear - so i didnt want to show him anymore of my offense than i needed to (hoping to save some of it for a possble playoff game down the road - i have to much respect for his ability to lab and find counters to other players strengths)- so i ran 2 formations and about 10 different plays within those formations to stay within the repetitve play calling rule...

besides - at least their is common sense behind why i run heavy - THERE ARE tons of guys that pass in the same proportions simply because they cant run the ball and nobody mentions it!!!! But i can pass the ball - not great - but when I need to - i can make some plays downfield -BUT i only do so when i NEED to make such a play - until than i run the ball (minimize my turnovers) and try to play tuff defense and maximize chances to take away the ball... simple philosphy and is not anything revelotuonary - guys have used this way of playn for decades...

anywasy the run is so easy to stop - my game play philosphy must be totally flawed and easily exploited by the defense...

Its hard to say something about someones playing style. Ur either a runner or a passer...sure everyone would like to see that 50-50 run pass ratio but let's be real. Against some players u can't run the ball so u have to pass and vice versa. Some players don't have that skill to pass and some don't have the skill to run. Some ppl wanna play ball control whihc is boring and frustraiting to a lot of player. Bigbullet is a huge clock eater and its irritating. That's his gameplan. Some ppl wanna score as fast as possible so the clock becomes a factor...

Jus my .02 on that issue

Greenerrr here is your stats per week...it was not just the CP game and you have not played Cheddah in this league. it is your entire season

1- 5 for 6 passing 56 yards 37 rushing attempts--- win
2. 4 for 7 passing 107 yards 27 rushing attempts- win
3. 5 for 5 passing 130 yards 35 rushing attempts- win
4. 3 for 11 passing 96 yards 27 rushing attempts- loss
5. 7 for 9 passing 77 yards 19 rushing attempts- loss
6. 3 for 8 passing 16 yards 45 rushing attempts- loss
7. 2 for 4 passing 1 yard 35 rushing attempts- loss

I am just asking that 4th and inches from 27 is 100% auto FG but this aerial attack 100% nfl style sim? This in any league but high school or the old Oklahoma Sooners football days or like FF said, 1930 professional football is not realistic.

bjcole26 wrote:Greenerrr here is your stats per week...it was not just the CP game and you have not played Cheddah in this league. it is your entire season

1- 5 for 6 passing 56 yards 37 rushing attempts--- win
2. 4 for 7 passing 107 yards 27 rushing attempts- win
3. 5 for 5 passing 130 yards 35 rushing attempts- win
4. 3 for 11 passing 96 yards 27 rushing attempts- loss
5. 7 for 9 passing 77 yards 19 rushing attempts- loss
6. 3 for 8 passing 16 yards 45 rushing attempts- loss
7. 2 for 4 passing 1 yard 35 rushing attempts- loss

I am just asking that 4th and inches from 27 is 100% auto FG but this aerial attack 100% nfl style sim? This in any league but high school or the old Oklahoma Sooners football days or like FF said, 1930 professional football is not realistic.

well i am 3 wins and 4 losses - clearly not doing well - so survival of the fittest - my stragedy is not working and i am losing because of it - but its my decision to make - not yours... besides i am sure if you look up other peoples games - you woulkd find the oppisite results in favour of the pass - why arent u making a thread belly aching abbout them?

and besides this thread is about unrealistic 4th down plays - and i never make a BS call in that regard

I'm gonna say, my numbers are probably skewed in the pass direction. But I always come out trying to run and when it doesn't work I switch to the pass. If my running game was working in a game, my numbers would probably be similar to Greener's, because I'd keep doing it. I think NFL coaches in most cases would be the same.

phantomshark wrote:I'm gonna say, my numbers are probably skewed in the pass direction. But I always come out trying to run and when it doesn't work I switch to the pass. If my running game was working in a game, my numbers would probably be similar to Greener's, because I'd keep doing it. I think NFL coaches in most cases would be the same.

thats how i view it - and with the exception of CP game - i was having success vs my other oppoents (actully had succes with CP too - just couldnt stop him on defense and had a couple bad luck drives with penaltues and a tipped ball intercepted) - i am pretty sure they were close games - so why change something that is working? If you cant stop the run - i am going to keep running the ball - not just gonna pass fo rthe `sake`of passing... as i wouldnt expect guys to run for the `sake`of running...


besides - i would say that there are probaly even more guys that over emphasize the pass like i over emphasize the run - the stats dont differentiate gratuitous end of the half or end of the game runs - and i bet some guys that where +50% of their runs come from

phantomshark wrote:I'm gonna say, my numbers are probably skewed in the pass direction. But I always come out trying to run and when it doesn't work I switch to the pass. If my running game was working in a game, my numbers would probably be similar to Greener's, because I'd keep doing it. I think NFL coaches in most cases would be the same.

+1.

I'd run all game if I could

surfnturf90 wrote:

phantomshark wrote:I'm gonna say, my numbers are probably skewed in the pass direction. But I always come out trying to run and when it doesn't work I switch to the pass. If my running game was working in a game, my numbers would probably be similar to Greener's, because I'd keep doing it. I think NFL coaches in most cases would be the same.

+1.

I'd run all game if I could

Key word 'if' lol

BiLlDoZeR_27 wrote:

surfnturf90 wrote:

phantomshark wrote:I'm gonna say, my numbers are probably skewed in the pass direction. But I always come out trying to run and when it doesn't work I switch to the pass. If my running game was working in a game, my numbers would probably be similar to Greener's, because I'd keep doing it. I think NFL coaches in most cases would be the same.

+1.

I'd run all game if I could

Key word 'if' lol

lol great point

Just like you said it was my decision and EZ to go for it on 4th down and not yours...You pointed out what was sim and what 100% of the NFL coaches would do.. So i simply stated, please lets discuss what sim is....your passing stats would suggest you have not been playing sim football at all and so would the no huddle hb dive and hb power every other series but again, if were 7-0 and winning with it, you would have a lot more people calling you cheeser or unsim... Just like if he would of stopped me on 4th and inches and won 21-17, he would not of mentioned anything. Oh well...good luck with your style and i will continue with my non sim 4th and inches.

bjcole26 wrote:Just like you said it was my decision and EZ to go for it on 4th down and not yours...You pointed out what was sim and what 100% of the NFL coaches would do.. So i simply stated, please lets discuss what sim is....your passing stats would suggest you have not been playing sim football at all and so would the no huddle hb dive and hb power every other series but again, if were 7-0 and winning with it, you would have a lot more people calling you cheeser or unsim... Just like if he would of stopped me on 4th and inches and won 21-17, he would not of mentioned anything. Oh well...good luck with your style and i will continue with my non sim 4th and inches.

btw - 11-1 in chedah lg - and i play the same way...

bjcole26 wrote:Just like you said it was my decision and EZ to go for it on 4th down and not yours...You pointed out what was sim and what 100% of the NFL coaches would do.. So i simply stated, please lets discuss what sim is....your passing stats would suggest you have not been playing sim football at all and so would the no huddle hb dive and hb power every other series but again, if were 7-0 and winning with it, you would have a lot more people calling you cheeser or unsim... Just like if he would of stopped me on 4th and inches and won 21-17, he would not of mentioned anything. Oh well...good luck with your style and i will continue with my non sim 4th and inches.

Bj your situation is totally different than what I am talkin about

GREENERRRR wrote:
btw - 11-1 in chedah lg - and i play the same way...

And we're all looking for a Full House FB glitch trust us.

example different situations warrant different decisions for me. today i played delmas and had 4th and goal on his 2 yd line and kicked a field goal. going for it there would be consider more sim but to me it was not the most advantageous thing to do for me at that point. some decisions come back to haunt you and each coach (madden player) has to live with that.